ボブ・ラザーのインタビュー
風変わりな質問をしているからといって、映画の方向性を気にしないでくださいという質問をすることもあります。
L：いいえ、私が言ったように、私はそれについて本当に気にするつもりはありません。後でまで。
R：いいですね...その通りです。それが主な問題になるポイントがあります。今、私たちは紙に何かを手に入れなければなりません。私はこの脅迫的な人々のパネルの楽しいアイデアに興味があります...あなたはその時点であなたが取り組んでいると言われています...あなたはそれを何と呼びましたか？
L：何に取り組んでいるのか知らされなかった...
R：その時点で...
L：その時点で...いいえ。
C：ボブ、これは1988年です... 1988年の秋ですか？
L：うん。
C：時々日付を尋ねるつもりです。なぜなら...ここでタイムラインを作成する必要があるからです。日付に近い-月と年...
L：私にとって一番いいのは引き抜くことです...
R：後でそのような宿題をすることもできます。
L：私はこれらのカレンダーを持っています...それらは私が毎日起こったことを書く大きな壁掛けカレンダーです...そして私は1980年のようにそれらを持っています...だから私は正確な日付を持っています。そして、私はそれらのカレンダーのいくつかをコピーしました...だから...私は私の命を救うために日付を思い出せません... 1年以内でさえ。
C：EE＆Gでの2回目の会議ですか？
L：EG＆G。
C：EG＆G、ごめんなさい。
L：ええ、これは私の2番目になります。
J：ああ、そこで2回の会議がありましたか？
L：しかし、最初のものは別の仕事のためのものでした。
R：ああ...気づかなかった...面白い。パネルには何人いましたか？大まかに？
L：5つ？
R：ユニフォームはありますか？
L：いいえ。
R：彼らは科学者でしたか？
L：うん…迷ってる…わからないから躊躇する。
R：わかりました...それは公平です。
C：検索されましたか？
L：そのうちの1人は... 1人は私の監督者になったデニスでした...私はまだ彼が何であるかわかりません...それで、彼は軍隊に見えました...彼は常にセキュリティに関与していました彼はほとんどの部分で非科学的でした...それで、私は彼が何であったかわかりません...しかし彼は唯一の疑似軍事的関与でした。
R：結局、このデニスの男はあなたがかなり緊密に協力していた人でした...
L：いいえ...彼はちょうど周りにいました...私はバリーという名前の男と非常に緊密に協力しました。
F：カスティージョ？
L：カスティリオ...しかしそれは発音されます。
R：カスティーロ。この5人の紳士がテーブルに座っていた部屋にあなたが案内されたときに何が起こったのかを教えてください。あなたは彼らがあなたの自由な時間にあなたが何をしたかをあなたに尋ねたと言いましたか？
L：ええ...私たちがすべての設備を乗り越えた後、彼らは私がロスアラモスを去ってから基本的に私が何をしたかを私に尋ねました...私は何も関わっていなかったので...私はただ座っていました写真の開発...そのビジネス...そして私は、特許を取得するために努力していて、まだ科学的なプロファイルを維持しているこれらの他のことに本質的に取り組んでいないと言いました、あなたはそれを呼ぶことができると思います...他のいくつかのプロジェクトで...私はまだ持っている小さな粒子加速器を作りました、そして彼らはそれに興味を持っていました...私は小さなジェットカーを作りました、前のもののようではなく、あなたが通りを走り回ることができるホンダ...そして彼らはそれに興味を持っていました...彼らは私の興味がどこにあるのか本当に興味がありました...私は私の本当の興味がどこにあるのか推測します...私のレクリエーションで何をしますか。それはすべて基本的にそのプロジェクトに関連しています...
R：彼らが何かを知っているという感覚はありましたか...あなたはこれに関与することに興味がありました...この前にこの売春宿（？）を購入しました。
L：いいえ...それはすでに起こっていました。それは何度も行われていました。
R：彼らがそれを知っていたという感覚はありましたか？
L：そうそう。売春宿を買うためには、あなたがしなければなりません...私がそれを買わなければならなかった唯一の理由は、それがすでに日本人のカップルによって購入されていて、それは民間人のQクリアランスのようなものだからです...あなたはクリアされる必要があります売春宿は特別な免許であるため、売春宿を購入する前に、組織犯罪との関係がないことを確認するために...
R：実際にこれを購入しましたか？
L：うん。そして、私はちょうど...ロスアラモスを去った後、私が犯罪を組織することに執着しているかどうかを確認するために9ヶ月をクリアする必要がなかったので、彼らの取引に割り込んだ...私は入った...ダーダー。 ..それは私のもので、私はそれを購入してローンの返済を開始しました...基本的には父に返済しました...ローンのために...そして、あなたが知っているように、私はそれでお金を稼ぎ、基本的に去りました...。
R：彼らはこれを持ち出しましたか？
L：まあ、彼らはそれを知っていました。彼らは本当にそれを持ち出しませんでした...
R：彼らが眉をひそめるようなものではないことに驚いています....私は軍隊ではなく政治に慣れていると思います...
L：そうではない...わからない...それほど奇妙ではない、あなたが知っている...それは外部の観点からだと思う...
R：それは合法的なビジネスですが、明らかに物議を醸すビジネスです...だから、もしあなたが政治家のために働いていたら、これはもっと大きな問題だったでしょう、しかしおそらく科学者として彼らはそれほど気にかけなかったでしょう...
L：ええ、そうですね...そのようなビジネスを所有することは物議を醸すものではありません...私はそれで働くことはそうだと思います...しかし基本的にビジネスは従業員が彼らが望むようにそれを実行するだけであり、あなたが本当にそれとは何の関係もありません。
R：ボブ、5人の紳士とのインタビューで何かありましたか...
C：それは桜の爆弾でいっぱいの灰皿です...
（笑い）
R：ボブ、このインタビューで、あなたが何か変わったことに巻き込まれようとしていることを示したり示唆したりしたことはありますか？
L：はい...インタビューの終わりに向かって、私が特に興味を持っていることについて話し始めました。人々が以前に冗談を言っていたように、私が知っていた精神科医でさえ、私は無限のパワートリップにいると主張しています。常に途方もない量の力を流したり使用したりするものに惹かれるので、私は武器に関わるのが好きです、ジェットカーが好きです、または爆発物が好きです...手に負えない量のエネルギーを生み出し、制御できるすべてのものそれ...私はそのようなことに関わるのが本当に好きで、彼らはそれを理解して言った、あなたは私たちがしていることに興味があると思う...私たちは新しい種類のことに取り組んでいる推進システムと私は言った...素晴らしい。そして彼らは言った、それは私達が今それについて本当にあなたに話すことができるすべてです。そして私にはすぐに鳴った... これは秘密の推進システムです...そしてそれは本当に高度なものでなければなりません...それは彼らが宇宙原子力推進で取り組んでいるSNAPプロジェクトのどちらかであり、それもまたきちんとしていたでしょう、そして私は彼らも働いていることを知っていました...最終的に翼のある航空機を宇宙に推進するいくつかの極超音速ラムジェットエンジンについてのつぶやきがあり、私が本当に好きだったであろうフィールド推進システムに取り組む機会もありました。だから、それは高度な推進システムだと思っていたので、とても興奮していました。いくつかの極超音速ラムジェットエンジンについてのつぶやきがあり、最終的には翼のある航空機を宇宙に推進し、フィールド推進システムに取り組む機会もありました。これは私が本当に気に入っていたはずです。だから、それは高度な推進システムだと思っていたので、とても興奮していました。
R：それでインタビューは終わりましたか？
L：ええ、インタビューは終わりました。彼らは、ほとんど私を驚かせるように、私にいくつかの簡単な小さな質問を簡単に尋ねました。ちょっとした科学クイズタイプのもの。
（笑い）
L: And
usually the... typically in the pressure of an interview... even a simple
question they'll get you on. But for some reason they just happened to ask me
about a lot of the information was about lasers.... and why, I don't know,
'cause it had nothing to do with what I had been working on, but I had,
coincidentally, been working on, had recently filed a patent, on a new type of
laser. And all the questions were in that area and I answered them
instantaneously, as fast as they came out of their mouths... so I surprised myself,
I think, more than I did them. And I think I left with a really good
impression. When I came home, I was positive that I had the job.
R: Now they
interviewed you here?
L: No, I
was interviewed at EG&G and then... but I was waiting to hear...
R: Here in...
L: Yeah,
here in Las Vegas. And, as I was waiting to hear, that's when they started
dropping by for the...
R:
Backcheck...
L: Yeah,
the background check. They stopped by here, which had never happened in Los
Alamos.
R: Tell me
about that.
L: That
happened in this house and it was... what they were really concerned with is
the chemicals that I had and glassware... and I had a feeling that maybe in the
back of their minds they thought I was making drugs, or something along those
lines. So, they came in...
R: Two?
L: Three,
initially.
R: Business
suits?
L: No, I
think it was... two was... 'cause they came twice or three times and the
first... yeah, business suits. No I think it was three guys the first time,
'cause one came to talk to me...
R: Did you
have the pirate flag and all this stuff then?
L: No, no, no, no...
(LAUGHTER)
R: Life has
changed since then.
L: Yeah...
and he came and we sat down on the couch and started talking and they
introduced themselves and the other guys left. And I think I even said... it's
the second door on the right, meaning the bathroom and that's not where they
went. They went all the way down there and started looking in the other room...
and I'm thinking what's going on?
R: They
showed identification of some sort?
L: Yeah, they
did.
R: FBI?
L: I
honestly don't remember what it was, but it was a badge and...
R: A disc?
L: I really
don't remember. Now one of the guys' names I did remember was Thigpen...
Officer Thigpen... and George Knapp, the reporter, did track him down and he
worked for the Office of...
R: Of
Special Investigation.
L: Right.
He worked for the O.S.I. , which I had never heard of... and that might've
sounded like the F.B.I. when someone flashed you a badge so... I really can't
say for sure.
R: Office
of Special Investigation... that alone sounds scary.
F: Thigpen?
R:
Thigpen... T-H-I-G-P-E-N... yes.
L: And
right after he worked here and has worked here for I don't know how many
countless years here in Las Vegas Boulevard in this unlabelled office that no
one knew what it was and after George said his name on TV... him and his family
all moved to Washington, D.C.
(LAUGHTER)
L: They
completely relocated.
R: So
anyway, Thigpen came with two others...
L: With two
others... they looked around. They wrote down all kinds of things and they
simply left. It was not a very long...
R: You
thought this was just a normal...
L: But a
little more extensive, I think, because I had gone on about what I was doing at
home, I think they wanted to see what the environment was... so they came in
and looked around and then they left. They kind of took a tour of the house
more or less.
R: This was
'88.
L: No.
C: Can I
ask a stupid question?
L: Sure.
C: Were you
married then?
L: Yes.
C: Did they
talk with your ex-wife?
L: They
spoke with her one time. I don't think it was the first time... she wasn't home
the first time.
C: Apart
from you? They spoke with her alone?
L: No, I
think she was with me. I don't think they separated her.
C: What was
that like? Did they ask anything...
L: No, it
was not a typical clearance interview. They just asked what the neighborhood
was like, very odd questions.
R: The fun
of that in the movies is the odder those moments are... the more obscure those
kinds of questions are... that strikes me as the reality we're going for on
something like this. Well, I can think of a million things to ask you. In
retrospect, do you believe that these felllows had any idea what they were
interviewing you for?
L: No.
Absolutely not.
C: Check
him out and make sure he's not doing drugs, I guess. Did they ask you about
drugs or alcohol?
L: Yeah,
they did.
C: They
always do.
R: What
type of (UNCLEAR)?
L:
Photo-developers, yeah, least diabolical.
(LAUGHTER)
R: So
Thigpen and two others came and talked with you and then left and then what
happened?
L: Life was
back to normal.
R: They
came back again?
L: Yeah,
they came back again. This would be a lot easier if I was looking at the
calendar.
R: It's
okay 'cause we're going to go back and do that... this is allowing us all to
generate more...
C: Can I
take an overview of today just in terms of goals? I'm going right back to a
maelstrom of technical things finishing the picture and I obviously wanted to
be here for the start of this... what I imagine is that you guys in your
subsequent meetings will go over more of the details, if you have access to
your calendars... if you have the dates that Roy seems to be interested in
great... but if we can get through key events this afternoon and, obviously,
the more compelling events, we'll do as much as... write down even any key
dialogue... but maybe we can get through the chronology in broadstrokes...
we're all familiar with the story, but there's just an entirely different thing
that happens when you tell it... that's the unfortunate truth.
L: I tend
to leave out, when I tell the story, big, important pieces.
C: Well,
that's not very nice.
(LAUGHTER)
R: Why is
that?
L: I don't
know. I just do... I don't know if I'm trying to block it out of my mind or
what but...
R: Well,
that's actually fascinating and those are the things that we don't want to miss
when we run on... because these things have a pattern. There actually is an arc
that comes into this kind of storytelling... something that may seem boring to
you will be tremendously exciting to us because it's another opportunity to
make the story resonant or real or whatever it is... it's the honest details.
What was the next significant thing that happened?
L: They
returned. The second time it was more overt. I was in the little photo room
here and I think this was when two people came. They came in and I was in the
middle of developing film, so I went back in there and the other guy came in
and stood at the door and then, again, the other person disappeared. As he was
standing in the door, he put his arm across as if I couldn't leave and I said,
well, what's this about? And he didn't ask but five or ten questions, just
normal things and I heard all kinds of noise going on...
(LAUGHTER)
L: ... and
I had no idea what the other guy was up to and then they left. So, for then on
I wondered, now exactly what is going on. And then shortly after that was when
I got called.
R: Was the
house in disarray after they left?
L: No. I
couldn't find anything. But I heard drawers opening and closing and I thought
what... what is there to see because the people were here before... but they
were in the bedroom...
R: Could
they have been looking for bugging devices?
L: No...
they wouldn't physically look for them.
R: Were
they in the lab.
L: Yeah.
R: Did they
turn anything on anywhere?
L: Yeah.
R: Did they
turn on the cyclotron(?)
L: That was
connected to the...
R: Light
switch.
L: The
light switch.
R: So they
turned it on... they flipped the light switch and you could hear WHRRRRR....
L: Yeah, it
makes a lot of noise.
J: That's
the light and the cyclotron.
R: Is it
safe to say that it was a little tenser atmosphere that time or...
L: Well,
not just tense... I would say that the excitement was diminishing rapidly. Now
it was more like... you've stepped over the line and now you're invading my
privacy instead of just investigating it and, but it happened so fast, I was
left kind of with my jaw on the ground. I didn't... they must have had a reason
or one specific thing they wanted to check on whatever it was and...
R: Was your
wife home?
L: I don't
remember. No, I don't think she was. She was out delivering film... oh, no, she
was working at the airport at that time.
R: So they
left?
C: Did you
cop any type of attitude at all with them?
L: They
came three times. 'Cause the time after that, Thigpen alone showed up and Wayne
and his wife were in the photo room working and, at that time, my wife's sister
was here, Kristen, and so everyone got to see him. And Thigpen and I went into
the lab just to talk.
R: What was
the nature of that talk?
L: He
wanted to know about the house that I had just moved out of on Engretta, up
here, and he said, the neighbors said you had someone living with you and we
haven't been able to find him... that was Jim... crazy Jim... and so they
wanted to know about him, what was the (UNCLEAR), why was he living in the
house... he always seems to follow me wherever I move... he's just one of those
friends and they had asked the neighbors... the neighbors said well, there were
always wierd things going on at your house and I kind of explained, well, we
had rockets in our backyard and they were just wierd neighbors and then he
left.
R: Some
people would say it wasn't the neighbors, that you should have rockets in your
backyard. As an adult there will always be some sense of eccentricity. So that
wasn't an antagonistic meeting... was it actually more relaxed than the one
prior to it?
L: Oh,
yeah. Much more so, much more so.
R: So
what's next... you found out about the job?
L: Right.
R: A phone
call... how'd that happen?
L: That's
very strange, because I told them I could not give up this job until I go on
full time, 'cause they had mentioned before you can go on full time we need to
get you up to speed. So we're going to have to take you a couple times a week
and brief you on some stuff. This is when I learned that the job was going to
be in what they called a remote area. And at first I thought I'd have to drive
somewhere to the test site... which I was never thrilled about doing. But then
they said that we were going to be flying out of EG&G and I said that's a
remote place... we got to fly somewhere. So then I almost thought that it was
going to be up in northern Nevada or something. And the way they would call was
really strange. There would be a lady calling and she would say, is this Mr.
Lazar, and I'd say yes and she would say... for instance, it is now 3:15 you
need to be... I can't remember the exact syntex of it, but she said you need to
be at the EG&G terminal at 4:17 and they were always these odd numbers and I
got a kick out of that. And that was it. And I would leave and I would go to
the lady up front at EG&G who had this round...
R: This was
without your even knowing...
L: No, they
called and said I had the job and they'd be contacting me for the flight information
and that was the flight information... it is now 3:15... that was my notice.
But they did tell me, be prepared, because they're going to tell you when your
plane's leaving and it could be in an hour and every time they called me after
that it was... the first words out of her mouth... Is this Mr. Lazar? Yes. It
is now 2:17, you have to be at so and so...
R: Why do
you think they did that?
L: I have
no idea.
R: I can
guess... because they didn't want your travel to be known... your plane was
always leaving a couple of hours after they call you, right?
L:
Sometimes about an hour, yeah.
R: So
obviously, they don't want to tell you, although they may know a week ahead of
time, they want you to know only a brief period of time ahead of time so you
can't tell anybody where you're going.
L: Why tell
me what time it is now? Well, I guess so there can be no error.
R: Yeah.
L: You do
not have three hours to leave... it's now two o'clock your plane leaves at...
J: Get your
shoes on.
R: I find
it interesting because it's such a stilted thing... it's wierd and obviously
since you always have to like, now, oh shit, I have an hour to go... you're
never able to let anyone know where you're going or, I would assume as few
people as possible on these sort of surprise trips.
L: Well, I
had the number there, in fact, the first time I said, boy, that's wierd and I
thought I'd call Dennis. And I had the number and I called down there and they
said, There's no one by that name that works here.
R: That's
great.
L: And I
said, well, that's wonderful. And I said, is there another extension... and
they said no, we have the list and there's no one here that works there and so
I said fine and I went down there at 4:15 and where I called Dennis is there.
And that was the lady I had spoken to... so I already knew that this was a
fantasy land job.
C: You
probably were getting more and more excited with this level of security or were
you getting frustrated already?
L: No, I...
maybe so...
R: You had
not previously been involved with this level of security, right?
L: Right.
R: You
packed your bags and went.
L: Well, I
really didn't take anything just my...
R: Was it
at 4:17 in the afternoon?
L: Yeah.
Well, it was always after 3:30, usually around 4 something.
R: Did you
spend the night?
L: No, I
never spent the night. The latest flight I ever had was like 11:30 back.
R: I'm
sorry. You were flying from where to where?
L: McCarren
to Area 51.
R: Where's
McCarren exactly?
J: Las
Vegas Airport, where we landed.
R: And how
far... how long a flight is that?
L: Oh... I
don't know... it's maybe a half an hour.
R: Is that
what... north of here or something?
L: A
hundred fifty... a hundred and fifteen miles, something like that. It's
nothing.
C: Bob,
what happened on the first day?
L: The
first day was all paperwork, nothing, never even got to go out to S4... landed
at Groom Lake and just was taken off the bus in a little tour bus kind of
thing.
C: There
were other people there?
L: Yeah...
other people on the plane. It was by no means full. It was like a 727.
R: These
were all people who worked at Groom Lake... S4?
L: I don't
know where they went. Only once did other people come with me down to S4...
most people just went to Groom, which does all kinds of secret stuff, but
nothing... no alien technology.
R: But
stuff with high security.
L: Oh,
absolutely.
R: If
nothing else, they'd be working on an airplane or something?
L: Almost
always.
R: Did they
have a casual attitude? It's a very specific question... but what are the
attitudes of these people on this commuter flight to a security base?
L: Nothing.
R:
Normal... usual? They don't talk to each other.
L: You
really can't hear people talking on a plane. And we landed and I went inside
and the first thing was processing... signing papers... that's where I
originally got my badge and...
C: Is this
where they pretty much took you into the medical facility?
L: No, no,
no... that was the next trip.
R: Did they
tell you to sign the paper to tap your phone?
L: Yeah,
this was authorization for... what did they call it...
C: Extreme
snoopery...
L: Yeah...
J: Did it
actually say phone tap on the form?
L: Yeah,
I'm trying to think again of the exact... for monitoring of telecommunications,
I think was what it was...
R: Phone,
Fax and Modem... there is a term for that...
L: Yeah, I
think it was telecommunications... but briefly it was permission to phone tap.
R: Was it
all paperwork the first time or was there a briefing?
L: Yeah,
there was a security related... they did something like that just was Q
clearance, but it was a little more robust I guess. That was the first time I
was a guard... or pseudo military persons.
R: At the
same time?
L: This was
separate... it was after a lot of paperwork had been done and then I was lead
into another room which was small. One little desk in there and there was
another paramilitary guy sitting there and a guard, a typical guard, desert
camouflage and his gun and all that stuff. And I sit down in the chair, which
is against the wall, and he said, we just wanted to not remind you, but I guess
impress upon you the security that you're dealing with here and he went into
everything. He was kind of friendly the first time... I had I guess not
conflicts, but I had contact with these guys later on and he's the one that
really laid it out for me and said these guys do nothing. All they do is wait.
That's there job is to wait for a conflict to arise or for something to go
wrong. So we expect to see your badge in plain view, we expect to see it here,
we don't expect you to put it in your pocket or leave it in your desk, because
frankly you're going to have to... he went into the whole nine yards as far as
what their job was here. And what it was going to be like in the area I was
working on. He said, it's going to feel oppressive at times, but that's just in
the interest of security and blah blah blah. And then his buddy there...
END OF TAPE
ONE - SIDE A
TAPE ONE -
SIDE B
R: So that
ends up sending you back home and what's your next time?
L: I don't
remember how many days away that was, but shortly after there was the same type
of phone call... It's 4:15 now, be there at such and such a time?
R: How did
you feel about the second time you got this call?
L: Well,
now I was excited because I know the preliminary stuff was out of the way,
because, in fact, if I remember, the first day was kind of a blur because
nothing really happened that day. Towards the end of the day, they said okay
now we're going to go down to the area you're going to work at. And Dennis
never came back. At that time they put me in the cafeteria and I was just
hanging out there, eating candy bars and they had a TV and I was just watching
something stupid and by the time he came back he said we're not going to have
time so we're just going to catch the flight out. So we left. So, I knew that
we were at least at that point so when I was going back the second time, I knew
I would at least be going to where I was going to work and hopefully see what I
was going to be working on. And that's exactly what happened. We went down to EG&G
terminal, flew out of McCarren... same scenario all over again... landed
there... but this time almost immediately we went from there to a school bus...
a Bluebird school bus that was painted dark navy blue and it had no... the
windows were painted along with the bus. The only windows were in the front.
Which I thought was really odd.
R: How many
people were in the bus?
L: I'd say
me and Dennis, the driver, a guard and one other guy, who sat all the way up
front and we sat all the way in back. And the guard stood holding one of the
rails, though there were four hundred seats open... he stood at one of the
rails looking at us while we were driving.
C: Like in
case you pulled a fast move or something?
L: No, most
specifically so I couldn't look out front. Which is ridiculous. I mean you can
still see around him, but so we got on a dirt road.
J: Can I
ask. What was Dennis' attitude during all this?
L: It was
like an every day...
J: He's
making small talk and he's not telling you anymore about what you're going to
see.
L: Yeah, he
was basically making small talk. Exactly, not saying anything about what was
coming up, but...
J: Did you
ask? Or was it an unspoken agreement not to?
L: It's not
that it was an unspoken agreement it's just that I really don't do that anyway.
I assume it's coming... so... I'm really not that talkative when put alone with
people I don't know.
J: You're
still at the point where you could be working on SNAP, you could be working on
some other kind of propulsion system, you still have no clue, right?
L: I was
convinced that it was going to be something like that. Especially now that
we're out at the nuclear test site going through a remote area, now I was
becoming convinced that it was nuclear space propulsion.
R: So this
is exciting. This is what you live for... the big league, right?
L: Oh,
yeah. But for some reason I thought this also explains some of the military
intervention here, obviously, this is weapons related so that made it that much
better. But that has nothing to do with anything. So, we were headed out to the
area and it was about a fifteen or twenty minute drive...
R: SR now?
L: Yeah,
because it was a real bumpy, slow dirt road and...
R: Is this
a real desolate area?
L: Oh,
yeah. This is exactly like the dry lake. Exactly. It's on a dry lake.
J: The dry
lake you went to.
R: There
wasn't a road there. If there was a lot of that I would have gotten lost
instantly.
L: That was
the road that we drove on... a road like that.
R: Very
surreal... like a car commercial with the cracked earth... very end of the
world... The guards live out there?
L: I guess,
I don't really know. It's a giant installation. I went into like one tenth of
one percent of it...
R: Is S4
part of Area 51?
L: No.
R: What are
they?
L: They're
fifteen miles apart... it's just a separate installation. But Area 51 has the
landing strip on it, so that's where you have to... if you fly in you must fly
in there and go to one of the two. The nuclear test site has its own landing
strip and that's way far away from either one of those.
C: I was
wondering about radiation... working in a nuclear test site. Did that ever
cross your mind in general?
L: No, no.
J: He's got
enriched uranium in his bedroom.
F: Remember
the paper that we wrapped the uranium in?
L: That
wasn't... that wasn't uranium.
F: But it
had uranium in it.
L: Yeah.
F: And we
wrapped it in newspaper and brought it home and there was a whole in the
newspaper.
L: And it
started burning it. We bought it in a rock shop and the guy didn't know he had
radioactive material in some rock shop. Let me just back off on that for a
second... I went into this rock shop... this was this time in New Mexico,
because I need sources to test the detectors that I make, but you need strong
ones and inevitably you can find, in good rock shops, the guys have really high
grade uranium ore because they make... they'll have this big, black, square
crystals and they are really dangerous to handle, because they're uusually hot.
R: Are they
ignorant, these rock guys?
L: Oh, I
came in with a Geiger counter 'cause that's how I find them. And they have all
their good specimens and I just run it by the counter. If it ticks, I stop and
if it ticks real loud... I'll buy it. Give me that thing. And, as I went by the
counter, this thing went ... ZZZZZZ... and I backed up and got close to it and
when I put the Geiger counter too close to it, the guy would back up, thinking
I was doing something to his rock. And I'd say, I'll take it. So, he got it out
and put it on the counter and, as I put that to it, he'd back up across the
room. I mean they're completely ignorant as to what's going on. Anyway,. that's
just a sideline... so, as we reached the installation, we went past it, because
I kind of saw past the guard the big sloping walls to this thing....
R: Hangar walls?
L: Yeah,
which looks a lot like the Nevada power building up here.
R: That was
like a "Close Encounter" set...
J: Well,
except that these walls are built into the side of the mountain so that the
door's actually textured to look like the side of the mountain so when that
opens up...
L: No it
rolls out...
R: Is it
good camouflage on ground level or not?
L: Oh, no.
But you can tell they did go to an extent to... I mean, they put drylake dirt
on the door. I mean it was obviously an attempt to... I was just surprised they
didn't glue bushes on it, you know.
(LAUGHTER)
L: They
probably would, if they could keep them green. But we went past it and there
was a notch... there were hangar doors, which I didn't know were hangar doors
at that time, and around the corner there was an entrance where you would go
into the office area. That's where I was let off the bus and then taken into a
small room and it was a very boring looking building, very plain. It looked
like an old school building inside. The walls were concrete and they were
painted with this light green for fifty percent of it all the way down the
corridor and then a dark green on the bottom.
C: An
institution paint job.
L: Yeah, it
was like an old government... how they used to do stuff in the '50's, 'cause I
think I had an old kindergarten... or some building I was in looked like that.
And everything was all concrete and metal doors... there was nothing
fashionable in it anywhere. And I was taken into one of the small rooms and
that's where I was first given a briefing.
C: On the
second time?
R: Yes,
this was the second time.
C: What did
you think when you started to read some of these files... what did you feel?
Just info?
L: No.
Because what they had given me initially to read was overviews... not really
overviews, it was as if the other projects that were going on there all had
their own reports or briefings or notes of progress that were going on and they
essentially gave me two or three page excerpts from those. Why I don't know. If
things were compartmentalized it may be specifically just to relieve any
potential curiosity or problems, by the way this is what's going on here,
should it have any connection to your project... but any other information
about it is restricted at this point or on a "need to know" basis.
So... I was... reports on top were the thin ones and that's what I was thumbing
through, essentially seeing what was going on and what the project names
were... One of them I remember being "Sidekick" which, I think was
the first one I opened, and that dealt with the weapon or potential weapon
technology of the craft -- is how it was stated.
R: This was
the first time you read...
L: Yeah,
"of the craft" and everything that was subsequent it that was in an
unusual context... not like, well, we're working on this and trying to do
that... it was from a back engineering stance... it was, well, we've seen this
and we're trying to figure out what this does. And obviously they were working
on a piece of hardware that was already...
C: Did you
immediately know that you were dealing with a UFO?
L: No, for
some reason, this went completely over my head, because at the time I was a
horrendous UFO skeptic... I thought that that was just a lunatic topic...
R: Which,
by the way, is something to note for the story that I think is important to
work in... and you remained to a great extent, in my mind, a skeptic... I'm
talking about abductees and some of the other farther-out concepts...
L: Well,
that's because I was exposed to this stuff. It kind of takes you past a second
point, once you've had the privilege of... you wonder about many things... but
if something is presented to you... this is now a reality... you can see it,
you can touch it, you can work with it... then immediately you say, okay, now
unless these other topics are accelerated to that level, they do not go into my
belief system.
R:
Abductees?
L: I
haven't seen them abducted so... forget it... so, if anything, that bolstered
that line of thought. So...
R:
Demystifying the craft itself it makes you even more skeptical about these
magical abudction experiences.
L: Much
more. I said, after some time, well, here's the craft. This is an alien craft
made by a different civilization somewhere else... not even in this solar
system... fine, we can accept that...
(LAUGHTER)
L: ...
where are the cages and the big vats to put the cattle in and stuff. So, if
anything, you become very skeptical of the stories.
R:
(UNCLEAR)... operation "Domelike", operation...
L: Maybe
there are vast flying alien laboraties that do things like this... but who
knows... from what I've seen this is exactly what I named it... the Sport
Model... it's truly a sports car, there is nothing in there other than
equipment to make it fly. There is nothing else. It can have no other purpose
other than getting from point A to B quickly.
J: I always
surmised, before I met you or read about any of this, that the size of these
UFO's meant... when I saw the one I saw fifteen years ago... that they were
either jumpships from a large craft or they could fold space and you don't have
to have a big ship to travel long distance, but those were the two, my two,
conclusions...
L:
Anything, anything is possible. I find myself stopping at certain points, I
don't know if it's to preserve my sanity or not, but once you accept what you
see and what you know to a certain point... I mean questions start popping into
my mind, too. Obviously, there's not one of these. They must have been produced
in a factory. And then you begin to conjure up ideas of a factory on another
planet somewhere... so then you wonder about the social system, do these people
go and build these things at a General Motors type plant and what do they do
after five?
J: Are they
new models every year?
L: Right...
but it begins to sound science fiction after that point. You grasp back to what
you know and say this is here. Well, did aliens bring it? I don't know. It's
here. That's it. And you stop and it's satisfied. It fell from the sky and it's
here... that's it.
J: Is that
everyone else's attitude that you were working closely with?
L: Oh, they
were much more at ease with it... but then they might have been there for
years.
J: Were
they more at ease with their speculations or were they as scientific about it
as you were?
L: I don't
know. They might have known a lot more than I did, so they may have been at
ease because they knew exactly what was going on.
R: I would
think in the bigger scope of things, most people, if they knew a lot more,
wouldn't be at ease. That it would be such a large, almost tramatic issue... if
you really got to know things such as their social system...
L: Maybe...
and what would be the reason for them knowing it? So chances are that's not the
way...
R: I always
felt it was secret because there's stuff going on that the government can't
stop or control so they'd rather not comment on it publicly. Because if they
comment on it they have to say, there are flying saucers and there have been a
few incidents... people are gone and we can't control it. I can never picture
any government on this planet wanting to cop to that to the people they govern.
L: That's
not the way it would ever be released.
R: That's
just what I'm saying... that's just my point.
L: They'd
take one of the ones they don't want, put it in the back of a C130, go over the
middle of a populated town and push it out the back, and it would slam into the
ground and they would say... oh, the first flying saucer is here. That's how
they'd do that.
J: Didn't
they actually joke about that?
L: That's
exactly what they joked about.
J: If it
got too hot...
L: Just
boom... there it is...
R: That's
vital to the story... that issue and that dialogue.
L: They at
no time talked about coming clean with everything, saying, oh, by the way,
we've been lying for forty years. That wasn't even a consideration.
J: Just let
the local news pick up on it and they'll come out like you never saw them
before and slowly release...
L: It falls
in perfect track with everything the government does. I mean, they probably
have people that specialize in that already.
C: Can we
go back for one second to...
L: I didn't
mean to...
R: I got
him off... questions I couldn't resist asking.
C: But it's
okay to fly all over the place, but there's... I'm still hanging on a couple of
important things in your second time at S4... you were going through the
files... you were in the room with the guard, who's watching you read the
files...
L: He
didn't stay in there the whole time. He left and went outside.
C: They
took the files away. They didn't watch you? Did anybody... did Dennis come in
and say, what do you think about this... was there any feedback? Was anyone
watching you when you came back... or when you came home were you aware...
L: Well,
you're asking many questions at one time.
C: Right...
sorry. It's all the same question.
L: Yeah,
there was some feedback, but not at that time. It was almost intentional
isolation.
R: Was that
an armed guard?
L: Oh yeah,
there was no such thing as an unarmed guard. They... I find it very difficult
to believe that they weren't monitoring me in some way. It would be impossible
for me to belief that that wasn't going on. That they were sitting somewhere,
in some room, looking at some TV monitor, watching Bob's expression. They must
have. But that's just conjecture. After that is when they took me out and, I
belief, if I have the chain of events right, that's when I went down to the
medical facility they had there.
R: Can I
back up a bit. The other files... you still didn't totally register that they
were talking about a UFO disc as you went through all these briefings?
L: Uhh...
yeah... I began to realize that that's what they were talking about, but I
still was resisting the idea that it wasn't what... well, see my problem is...
this has been so long ago it's melted all in to one long day. And I'm trying to
separate the events.
J: By the
way, any one of these sessions is subject to additions, corrections... second
thoughts... I mean we're not a jury and we aren't shooting the movie... this is
the first of a few sessions.
L: Yeah, I
don't think... I know at that time I did not think it was an alien space craft
that I would be working on. Period. That I knew.
R: You
might have been in denial...
L: No, I
don't even think I read anything that said "alien spacecraft" yet. I
saw the word disc, disc, disc... but so what?
J: Did you
ever guess?
R: You
certainly must have been curious, I mean this was the whole center of what you
were about to investigate...
L: No... it
wasn't even in my mind. It wasn't even a possibility.
R: No, but
as you read disc...
L: No, I
mean it was a disc craft...
R:
Something they had built...
L: It was
even... up until the day I first saw it, when I walked in through the hangar, I
said, to myself, this is the disc and when I saw the American flag on it... I was
positive... and instantaneously answered all of the UFO questions in my mind.
This is what everyone's been seeing. This is our secret craft and all those
flying saucers from another planet.... they're so stupid. The answers were all
there. And then it was after that...
R: You were
told that it wasn't the government's...
L: Well,
that's when we actually started working on the hardware.
R: So,
that's interesting, it's two levels. It's one saying, oh, it's what everyone's
been talking about -- UFOs is a government device... something we make.
L: See,
that's just one of those things... in my mind, I know I'm not suppose to think
about the movie, but I can never see that being portrayed. They're just
feelings. There's no one to say anything to... but I'm just telling you what I
felt... the way it was.
C: Well,
basically, we won't digress, but I'm not going to do voiceover... it does work
in (UNCLEAR), but it's the cheesy way out and, ultimately, we end up inventing
a confidant or something, if you really feel something like that's important.
R: When
this is all done, that may not be the most important detail to reach for... is
that you assumed this, but later found out that... that's just the kind of
thing that can be collapsed (?), anyway, it's not vital... we may or may not
choose to make it an issue that you thought it was government craft... we may
jump information... and the audience is going to come in assuming it... why
work against the audience's assumptions, unless it's a valid and important
event. We may just... I'm just pontificating on one specific point, I may
decide, yeah, that's too much trouble to dramatize, and I may not deal with the
fact that you thought it was a government craft and had to later be told that
it's an alien craft... I happen to find it interesting, though.
R: Oh, it's
great. And it can be done with something as simple as a smile on your face
looking at the American flag and a "yes", this is one of ours. It's
all about set-ups and payoffs.
J: If you
can live through his skepticism first... then you sort of waterdown the
skepticism of the people in the audience. If you can buy into that... you want
to be skeptical.
R: There's
a real excitement I have about these details anyway, because that's the way it
would go down... that's the way I felt the first time I heard your story.
R: I have a
question about the briefings... there were a collection of thirty or so
briefings and since...
L: A
hundred and twenty-one...
R: And
since you read the briefings and it was a progression of getting more and more
information, were there briefings laid out for you. In other words, read these,
or were you allowed to go through this and the reason you didn't get to more of
the juicy briefings is you just hadn't picked those up yet.
L: That's
right.
R: But they
were there. No one said I want you to read these...
J: The
first time they all weren't there.
R: They all
weren't even there?
L: No.
R: So it
was controlled. You were only allowed to read certain ones at certain periods
of time.
L: Right.
R: That's
interesting.
C: Wasn't
there something about "Looking Glass" project "Looking
Glass"?
L: Yeah,
that was later on... when we started getting into the heavy physics of it
because gravity distorts space and time and what they were trying to do, and I
say look back in time and some people conjure up images of a time tunnel...
they're looking at distorting time in microseconds to see whatever event they
were trying to observe through a gravitional lense... so that was a different
project they were dealing with that... but that was essentially playing with
gravity distorting time.
R: Did that
seem logical to you?
L: Oh,
sure. Well, I mean, we know that happens. That's not a theory.
C: That is
wild. So right now you can look back microseconds?
L: Not look
back... it just has to do with gravity... even in small amounts it's like... I
even said that on the tape that I made... there have been experiments taken
where you take an atomic clock... two atomic clocks and synchronize them. You
put one on earth and one on a tall mountain and when you put them back together
they read different times. Because gravity slows time.
C: I won't
digress anymore. So where are we?
R: After
the second briefing...
L: After
the second briefing, they took me to the medical...
C: You
surmised that there was some sort of monitoring, but you were not... there was
nothing obvious.
L: No,
nothing obvious... but I was convinced.
C: Your
phones... you were never aware of anything going on with your phones?
L: After I
left there, the first time, I was positive the phones were being monitored,
because after signing the...
C:
Consentment...
L: So, I
always knew that, but I was more anxious to be part of the project than
anything. I really didn't speak to anyone... not even to my wife about
anything. Which later caused a lot of friction. Where you going? I'm leaving at
four o'clock and I'm coming home at one in the morning.
C: That's
probably a commonly held problem for anybody working in a secret... on a secret
project? Is that correct?
L: It's
impossible to play the game the way they want you to. It's impossible.
R: Which is
also fascinating, by the way, just in terms of depicting a personal life in a
situation like this. 'Cause it's human nature. How can you not talk about...
F: How can
your wife trust you if she doesn't know where you're going and you won't tell
her?
L: Unless
she knows you're going to be working on secret projects. She knew I did at Los
Alamos... but this is specifically why they told me that they work on the buddy
system in there. You have one guy who is your confidant, who you can talk to,
who you can bounce anything off of, who you can speak to, if necessary, after
work, but you have to get in contact with someone else and, you don't just have
each other's phone numbers... is what I'm saying.
C: There's
a middle man.
L: But that
was specifically for that, so that you don't just sit at home and explode.
C: That
sounds wise and logical.
R: You were
at least allowed to tell your wife you were working on a secret project so you
can't talk about it.
L: Right.
R: So at
least there's that understanding. But, it's like in the film business, no one
understands that shit. When I work on a film, I can explain to my girlfriend
all I want that I'm night shooting and that I have to day sleep before I night
shoot again, therefore I can't call her... it just doesn't work... I need to
try and get my five hours... there's things people don't understand, not doing
it... particularly significant others. So there's got to be a common problem
that can potentially be dramatized... because to me, there's a subtext of
rejection, that would exist in any relationship... no matter how much the
government's told you not to say something, if you're there alone in bed with
your wife and to not tell her what you did that day...
L: Right...
it doesn't work is the bottom line.
C: It's
astounding the numbers of divorce...
R: Not to
put words in your mouth, but this is an idea that's always seemed obvious to me
in situations like this.
L: Well,
let me confirm.
R: So, it's
safe to say that, as you got deeper into this, there was already distance
growing in your relationship at home. Based on that you couldn't tell her what
you were doing.
L: Right.
R:
Primarily. So you went to medical...
L: Went to
medical... the only woman I ever saw there.
R:
Interesting.
L: Also
interesting, there were no minorities, from what I could see.
C: Is that
a fact?
L: Yeah,
everyone, even the guards were all white Catholic boys, from what I could see.
C: Can I
say something. I love that... because it's got WASPY, militaristic, jock
mentality that... I'm going to use the bathroom.
R: What
happened in medical?
L: They
took blood. Three tubes of blood. And after that, they gave me a skin prick
test... they said, you're going to be working with a lot of extremely unusual
materials, and we have to see if you develop any allergies to them. And they
did a little grid on my arm... a bunch of little pricks with different
chemicals in them. And then I wasn't allowed back for two weeks. And I had to
keep watch on that part of my arm. And I didn't develop a rash, or bumps
anywhere on it. When I finally did go back, I think it was the third time, is
when I got to see the craft.
R: The
third time you went back?
L: Yeah,
still after that medical examination, I believe that's when I first met Barry.
We went into the lab and I was shown around and briefly met Barry. This is who
you're going to be working with and it was a brief tour.
R: You were
asked to drink something?
L: Oh,
yeah, before I left I was asked to drink something and it smelled like Pine Sol
and I was lead to believe that it had something to do with the allergy test.
J: What
happened when you drank that?
L: When I
got home, it was still daylight and there was something wrong with my car. And
I called Gene, a friend of mine...
END OF TAPE
1 -- SIDE B
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TAPE 2 --
SIDE A
Q: Question
L: Lazar
L: ...
happened like that to me. This was sometime later, about a month later I had, I
mean, unbelievable amounts of blood in my urine.
Q: I missed
the set-up for this... this was after... I'm sorry, you probably just said
this, they made you drink something?
L: It was a
little plastic cup... this is part of the allergy test, but this was, you know,
drink it!
Q: How soon
after did you collapse?
L: When I
got home. It was also extremely hot that day. Gene's air conditioner wasn't
working in his car and I had seen so much and been through so much, I really
honestly didn't think too much about it. 'Cause I was dying of heat stroke,
anyway, driving around in his car. I just drank a lot of fluids and went to
sleep, but sometime later, I had a lot of kidney problems after that. Which, it
may have been a mere coincidence, but I've never had any medical problem, ever,
I've never even been to the hospital... and after that, from then on, I've had
wierd kidney problems. I've always blamed it on that. It might be a
coincidence.
Q: This was
the day that Bob saw the disc for the first time...
L: No...
this is still the second day.
Q: Oh, I'm
sorry. The third day you saw the disc.
L: The
third day.
Q: You
didn't stay over night though, you kept flying back each time?
L: Correct.
Q: So day
three... that's pretty early...
L: Now this
isn't three days from when...
Q: But over
a period of time...
L: Yeah,
but now we're coming up on three weeks from when I first...
Q: So
you're free to just go back to your normal...
L: Right.
Q: You're
still not doing work assignments yet.
L: No, not
yet. On day three was a different story. Day three I came in. One of the hangar
doors was open and I didn't drive around the back of the building as normal...
we stopped out front...
Q: You're
on this bus every time?
L: Every
time. It's the only way you can come and go.
Q: And they
still had the guard.
L:
Always... he was always standing in front of me.
Q: You're
still almost alone every time or there's more people?
L: No, that
was the only time there was ever anyone else. From then on it was always Dennis
and I.
Q: In the
back of this huge bus?
L: Yeah.
Q: That's
great actually.
L: So, we
stopped, instead of making the turn as normal, and got out and the hangar is...
literally this craft is sitting inside of the hangar...
Q: With the
door open?
L: Oh,
yeah, the door's wide open.
Q: You're
still making small talk... he's not talking about a disc?
L: No, now
he is. Now... he knew about it before... 'cause before we got on the bus he
said, I want to show you what you're going to be working on and I said, great,
and we got out of the bus and this is when that all ran through my mind... I
said, this is the secret fighter of the future is what we're working on. So on
and so forth. We came in the hangar in the entrance, walked around it, and this
is the first time that we picked up, what I call, parasitic guards, that just
are walking, and as you walk by they just attach themselves along side of you.
Q: Did they
speak to you ever?
L: Yeah,
they did. They asked me to keep my eyes forward and walk directly to the door
on the right. If the entrance was here... on the very back here there would be
a door... actually this way... that goes to a corridor and I was walking here
and he said, keep your eyes forward and enter in that door on the back. And I
did. Now Dennis disappeared. Maybe because I didn't turn around. As I went
back, I purposely came really close to this, so I could slide my hand on the
belly of the disc, feeling that it was cold, just to see what it felt like.
Q: Did it
feel like normal metal to you... nothing special?
L: It was cold,
so I thought it was metal. And to this day I still don't know... it felt
metallic.
Q: What
were you thinking?
L: Uhh...
that this is the fighter of the future. That we're working on.
Q: Ahh... bene!
L: Oh,
absolutely, no question about it.
Q: And you were
probably really excited, because you were going to be part of this really
exciting...
L: Right.
For one brief second, as I came by, the disc was rotated... the door was on
this angle... as I was coming out, to the door here, was the first time I got to
look inside and there were three or four people inside and I looked up, inside
there, and it was the first time I registered how small the seats were inside.
And it was the only thing that didn't make sense to me...
Q: But it
still didn't occur to you that it might be aliens?
L: No, but
it was odd. It stood out in my mind. There was nothing that looked normal
inside. There was no... I'd seen the insides of fire aircraft plenty of
times... everything in the military looks exactly the same, whether you're inside
a tank or an F16...
(LAUGHTER)
L: ...
they're all... but it looked different inside. There was nothing in there...
and then I just thought, well, maybe they weren't seats, maybe they were
something else. The thing's not finished being built, or whatever. It just blew
off the top of my head, in either case. So I went in, again, into the briefing
room. Dennis met me there... we went inside... now there's a lot of briefings
to read. He said I'm going to leave you here for about an hour and then I want you
to go in with Barry again and maybe we're going to have you start doing
something... so this is when I began to read it. This was a different briefing
room this time. And this was I think the first time I saw the "They're
Here" poster.
Q: It just
has a saucer and says "They're Here" on it.
L: It has
it hovering right outside, if you were to look right outside the hangar door,
just the drylake bed, and it just says, "They're Here" ... there's
nothing else... no other wording... and it's a regular lithograph poster. And I
kind of thought that was funny. But still it reinforced my idea that this was
what everyone had mistaken for flying saucers.
Q: What
about the briefings this time... the files...?
L: These
were extensive... these really contained just about everything.
Q: You
still thought this was our...
L: Well,
after seeing the poster, it was already seeded in my mind that something was...
that now something was strange. And immediately, when I picked up the
briefings, I don't really remember what I got into immediately, but it was all
back engineering, so on and so forth, and this was the first mention of an
alien craft.
Q: Did they
use the word "alien"?
L: Yeah.
Q: So, if
we had to pick a moment, that was the moment that you really knew?
L: Right.
That was the first time. Immediately after that, I don't remember how it was
worded, but they went right from that to gravity propulsion and that rings a
bell... and that says it all there... there is no gravity propulsion system.
And from there, they're talking about the reaction and it was one after
another, and that really changed my line of thought on everything.
Q: What did
you feel? You're sitting in the room alone with one other person...
L: No, no
one. There's no one else.
Q: And now
you know that right outside the door is...
L: Right,
this was a completely different feeling. It was... I reread the same paragraph
over, I think, a couple times... because I, I don't know if you do this, but
when you find something interesting, you just become excited and purposely
start skipping to see if there's a punchline at the end... or what else... if
there's drawings or pictures or anything... and so I found myself skipping
more, so I go and reread it again, just to see, in case you missed a word.
Somewhere... of some importance... like... The following is... just a joke.
(LAUGHTER)
L: But
there was no such thing like that and it was a very... I'd say exciting, at
that point, almost... it's so hard for me to put it in words. It's almost like
you're kidding. This is not possible. I guess until it finally soaked in a
little and I proceeded on... and then began to read some of the lab notes and I
think the next briefing I picked up was the notes from the guys that were
working on the reactor. And that's really when it hit me because it talked
about, there were notes at the end, after their entries had stopped, they had
died from the tests and that's kind of when it took on a serious note. Very
shortly after that is when Dennis came in and I went in with Barry and that's when
we first started...
Q: You had
to have been in a really stunned state of mind, but, I'll tell you, when I
happened to see this UFO I saw, I was basically underwhelmed by the whole
thing.
L: No, I
wasn't underwhelmed.
Q: You were
quite taken with it. That's why, they called me at specific times, that's why I
really felt that they had to have been watching me.
Q: Was
there a mirror in the room?
L: No.
Right after they had taken me out of there, right after I finished that
briefing, I went in with Barry and Barry was much more laid back...
talkative... made me feel much more at ease, type of guy... and it was... I
don't remember what he said, but something along the lines of... you feel like
you're in the "Twilight Zone", don't ya? And we were able to converse
like that... more or less alone, so he said, well, let me show you what we've
got... basically from the briefings did you read so and so... and I said, all
I've read is that this is an alien craft from another planet and we're trying
to find out what makes it work? And he said, that's where we are. Let me show
you what we've got. And that's it. That was the first time it was actually laid
out for me as a confirmation, he said, and that's when we started talking about
my specific job. He said, what we deal with...
Q: Can I
stop you for a second?
L: Yeah.
Q: Was
Barry about your age or a contemporary of yours in some way?
L: Ahh...
he was a little older than me. About five years.
Q: You felt
that he had a similar background or something?
L: Yeah.
Q: So he
was just a scientist as well.
L: Yeah,
but a lack one. Not a regimented... yeah. And he basically, very nonchalantly
said, let me show you what we've got. Our specific project, which you know is
called Galileo, is going to deal specifically with the propulsion system and
its power source and that's it. And, speaking of which, this is the reactor,
these are the amplifiers and this is what we're dealing with and then, of
course, we took a few minutes and then went into a conversation about
everything. And this is where I learned a lot about how everything connects
together. He said, there are other projects and it was really just rehashing
things continuously. No matter what we talked about, I'd come back with, this
is from another planet? Yes. Okay, and we'd go on.
(LAUGHTER)
Q: How long
had Barry been in the program?
L: Oh, it
seems like a long time. Because he knew the guys that were killed. So that had
to be...
Q: Five
years... ten years...
Q: Did he
ever say how long they'd had this craft?
L: No. That
I never knew. I think I even asked that to Barry and he didn't know.
Q: Where it
came from?
L: Where it
came from it was... it was both told by Barry and, in the briefings, that it
was from the Zeta Reticuli star system, as if I was supposed to know where that
was... when I came on, I started looking through all the star maps and it's
thirty light years away... southern hemisphere sky...
Q: It's
still in our galaxy?
L: That's
in the Milky Way galaxy, yeah.
Q: How did
they actually acquire it?
L: I don't
know. I say I don't think it was a crash retrieval. Because it was not damaged.
Q: In any
of these memos at any time was there an inkling that there was some cooperation
between these guys and the government?
L: Yeah,
and I find that so hard to believe... that is just beyond...
Q: It's not
our job to believe it...
L: I
know... I'm just saying, I find that so difficult to believe that... there
again, I...
Q: To tell
you the truth, from an objective point of view, it's not that tough... the
event itself, not for me but for our viewership, it will be tough to believe as
it was for you at first, but you had to work on that saucer which it's hard to
believe is the one thing you didn't see... which is...
L: Right,
I'm saying, because I was exposed to the actual hardware and got to deal with
it, it makes everything else much more difficult for me to believe now.
Q: Where
did it first mention the aliens referring to us as containers that they
genetically altered...
L: In the
reports...
Q: But
before this particular...
L: No...
that's later on.
Q: The
chronology makes perfect sense... the last thing they'd do is show him aliens
calling us containers before they really had him working on the ship. But...
what was the nature of the briefing that suggested there was cooperation? Did
they just lay it out... the aliens were there... we were there... and they gave
us this ship and we had to give them...
L: No... I
was going to say it was like an accident report... but it was kind of on the
forms that you would see that... that apparently there was a conflict at some
time that dealt with munitions there were carried by guards...
Q: On the
base...
L: On the
base... and...
Q: And were
there grays... do they call him grays or do they call them kids... or what do
they call them?
L: They were
referred to as... no one ever called them "the grays"... that's what
they call them in UFO lore... they were referred to as the kids... or, one
time, someone I remember -- Barry or Dennis -- referred to them as gourds...
Q:
Gourds...
L: Gourds
like, you know, those things on Halloween. That was the only reference to them,
but at one time there was supposedly some cooperation taking place and there
was a conflict started that dealt with the munitions being carried by the
guards.
Q: A
section of S4 guards walked in with munitions they weren't supposed to have? Is
that it?
L: Yeah,
from what I can understand there was a place where... I've tried to make sense
out of this before where it was either an area where there were actual live
aliens doing something... what they were doing there... cooperating or... I
mean, they were physically there doing... or just alive standing there in the
room, but they were not permitted to carry... I don't know if it was the
bullets themselves that contained an explosive mixture...
Q: The
guards were not permitted by the aliens to enter...
L: No...
they just were not permitted to enter that area and maybe it was for the
guards' sake... maybe something would set them off... maybe there was some
wierd fields in use or maybe aliens didn't want guards in there... I mean, to
me, this is an impossible set of circumstances... but, apparently one of them
did enter and then a conflict broke out and the bottom line was the guards
died. And that was the last entry that had anything to do with cooperation
between the two.
Q: Did they
say how many guards died?
L: Yeah,
they did and I can't remember. There were a lot. There were more than you think
you could hide with telling people... well, a bunch of people died...
Q: You had
told me forty-four at one time...
L: Yeah, it
was an unusual number... you can't imagine that forty people can be killed and
there not be a news story about it. Which is another thing that rang in my
mind... it just didn't sound right. How can you hide the deaths of forty-four
people.
Q: You had
mentioned one to me that the guards... they were telling you about the guards
and they said that these guards are orphans... that they have no traceable
family... blah... blah... blah...
L: Yeah, I
think that was Barry and after I read his report this is what I was questioning
him about.
Q: What did
Barry say?
L: Yeah...
Barry came in and said, well, yeah a lot of these guards are handpicked that
work down here... they have no connections to family and stuff like that... and
that's kind of when a discussion started, well, it doesn't matter, you can't
hide forty-four people being killed. It's just not possible.
Q: What did
Barry say about that?
L: I really
don't remember. I think it was more like... well, whatever... now, we've got to
get back to doing this... it was just kind of side-stepping because neither of
us knew for sure what was going on... 'cause it seemed like just the same
briefing I did.
Q: Let me
ask you something subtle about that. Does Barry skip the issue because he knows
it's a hot issue that could be nothing but trouble or does he skip the issue
because he doesn't know and just wants to talk about work?
L: How am I
suppose to know the answer to that?
Q: You
couldn't tell?
L: No...
Q: He
wasn't a guy who seemed scared by talking about it?
L: No... he
seemed very at ease with everything, though he did relate to me that at the
beginning it was just as unusual as it was for me, even more so because when he
first started there was no one he could talk to... so that's why I always
firmly believed that...
Q: Was he
married?
L: He never
did say. He never said where he lived either. Though I had a feeling Barry
didn't leave. I had a feeling that he had an on base...
Q: Was he a
happy guy?
L: Oh,
yeah, Barry was a happy guy.
Q: That's
interesting. I almost picture the poor guy as a prisoner of what he knows. If
he doesn't leave...
L: No...
you can really get into that... I mean, even with the oppressive security... I
mean, I felt really privileged... it was neat to be in on a secret like that...
I mean, after I found out we were dealing with alien craft... you felt really
cool and began to look down on other people...
Q: The
ultimate Lions Club...
L: Right.
Right. It was something... it was certainly worth putting up with.
Q: This is
so fascinating.
Q: What
time's your flight, by the way, because we can go on forever and ever...
Q: Well,
one thing would be a question of just getting tired of talking that's why we
expected you to come out for a day or two and continue when...
Q: My
flight's like around nine o'clock.
L: Some
water... are you getting tired?
Q: No, not
at all. Are you?
L: No, it
doesn't matter to me.
Q: Do you
have any sense of this event happening two decades ago or two years ago with
these guys getting killed?
L: Not two
decades ago. I'm relatively sure that the installation... that particular S4
installation was built after '76...
Q: So they
didn't have this craft before '76?
L: Almost
positively not...
Q: So they
built S4 because they had a craft?
L: Yes.
Q: That's
cool. So S4 was all about... how many of these crafts?
L: Well
there are nine total.
Q: Nine
doors that are all connected all...
L: Well,
see inside the hangars...
Q: That's
wild... it's like a car show...
L: That's
exactly what it is... a car show room... though they were all the same... they
all fit... the hangars were all the same size... there are bay doors that open
like this to the outside, but there are also big garage type doors that open
this way... and one of the times I went in all the doors were open and you
could see all the way down through the hangars...
Q: All the
ships?
L: Yeah...
and they were all different kinds, but I could never walk past... I mean the
line of death was on the other side of the disc...
Q: That's
fascinating... so there were parasitic guards at every hangar... so there were
dozens of guards...
L: There
were red lines on the ground... marking lines...
Q: What
uniforms did these guys wear?
L: They
were the desert kind... Desert
Storm camouflage...
Q: The gray
desert kind.
Q: And did
these guys have a sense of... they'd been there awhile so... even though
they're tough guards... they chat with each other, chew gum and hang around...
or are they like outside the Queen's Palace and they're quiet all the time.
L: No...
they're quiet all the time.
Q: So this
is dead serious... at attention kind of guys?
L: Ahh...
pretty much so... but I was convinced that they had no idea that these were
alien craft. These guys thought like what I did when I first walked in... just
like they were guarding a secret fighter.
Q: I've
spent so much time seeing this one design, the idea of being in a position to
show that shot you just described... which is like... wow... do you have enough
of a recollection of the shapes or general appearance...
L: Oh,
yeah.
Q: So
you've got sketches of everything?
L: Well,
that's when I made up the names for them.
Q: So we
have sketches of all of them?
Q: I'm
working on most of them... the Jello Mold, the Sport...
Q: Will
they be in this detail... this accuracy... or is this the one you worked on?
L: No, this
is the one I worked on... the other ones are from 200 feet away.
Q: But,
still, you can get the silhouette right, even...
L: Yeah,
the silhouettes the only thing...
Q: That's
all we care about... that's all we need, that's all I want...
L: I mean
they look nothing like you would think... they look ridiculous... one looks
exactly like a Jello Mold... the ones that you... you know, the Jello molds
with the hole in the middle and it has all the variations like that...
exactly... it looks like a giant...
Q: Does it
have portals on it?
L: No... it
was a solid... it was a flying Jello Mold... it was ridiculous looking...
that's why I said this is the Sport Model... this is the only thing that looks
like anything I'd want to own... everything else just looks like kitchen
hardware...
Q: That's
wild. What was the smallest one, you remember?
L: I don't
know... I even judged this one... I always said it was thirty feet in diameter,
which made no sense at all, because after we scoped everything out it was fifty
feet and once you go to a hundred feet away... I have no idea how big anything
was... so... they all fit inside... they are all approximately the same size...
there wasn't like a two hundred foot one. I'd say they're all about the size of
a house... well, my kind of house.
(LAUGHTER)
Q: I'm
getting out of chronology to a great extent here, but I want to jump around for
a couple more minutes... I've got questions I've been dying to ask you... this
one issue was sketchy or like an accident report, we know there were x number
of men down... does it say how they were found?
L: Yeah...
they had all died of head wounds.
Q: Did they
say how severe?
L: No...
they specified head wounds... I think was the only word...
Q: And
there was no date on these?
L:
Nothing... zip... nothing.
Q: Why the
hell would they give you these... this is what blows my mind.
L: I have
no idea. Why would they tell me the origin of the craft... your questions are
my questions.
Q: Why give
anybody this information about these forty-four guys... but I can believe
anything from the military...
Q: Well, as
you mentioned... even the origin of the craft... you're dealing with a super
heavy element... from a binary star system...
L: Right...
it might have something to do with what you're talking about... but what would
specifically...
Q: Were
there any other memos regarding cooperation?
L: No...
Q: So,
really this was the only memo that even suggested that...
L: It
wasn't a memo... it was like... it was like an accident report... you know how
you fill out for an insurance form your version of what happened... it was a
handwritten account from someone...
Q: Oh, it
was handwritten... oh, really... fill in the blanks type...
L: It was a
big white area of paper with printed text underneath and it says... occurrence
was as follows, colon and then you...
Q: Oh, like
a tax form...
L: Right an
alien tax form...
(LAUGHTER)
L: Alien
attack occurred on this date... right.
Q: You just
check them off... What government form could possibly cover stuff like that?
L: It
stated on it... it was like an incident report... I called it an accident,
but... it was an unusual incident form... I don't know... but it was something
like that...
Q: That's
what I call an understatement...
(LAUGHTER)
Q: Was this
also the time that you saw autopsies of the aliens...
Q: Yeah,
there was their artifacts... in plastic...
L: No, that
was later on, but in subsequent times after that I was looking through there
and seeing specifically what they looked like.
Q: So was
there a...
L: And I
have a feeling that the only reason that there could have been, other than to
alleviate some curiosity, is they felt, maybe because they were getting
nowhere, we found later on that everything in the disc is related to everything
else... there is nothing there for, you know, aesthetic reasons, everything
seems to rely on something... so they were, I think, stretching far beyond
thinking that where these guys came from might have to do with how you start
the craft... so they were covering just a wide...
Q: They
probably had gotten to the point where they were exhausted... they hadn't
gotten anywhere... they're bringing in new blood and they just said, fuck it...
L: They
reduced the amount of information... I never even saw what I think would be
more beneficial... why would I have seen an autopsy report and not a
metallurgical report? And I never saw anything from the people that dealt with
the metallurgy of the craft... this had to be a military line of thinking
because it made no sense whatsoever...
(LAUGHTER)
Q:
(UNCLEAR)... one of the reasons why I have what I call the "Aha"
effect... the effect -- how it would happen, if that makes sense, is it reminds
me of one of my favorite fictions which is the end of the first "Raiders of
the Lost Arc" where they've gotten the arc and they have it in a box and
there's a big matte shot at the end showing them wheeling it... the government
finally takes the arc away from Indiana Jones and they show them wheeling it
away to this huge warehouse where it will obviously be lost forever and that
kind of sludge like governmental thinking is what I'm sure where the level of
departmentalization and paranoia is ever going to keep anybody from cooperating
or getting the information that might be able to solve this... it's why I can
imagine they'd have this thing since '76 and still be lost...
L: Yeah,
that is the reality. That really does happen... the way they think. It's their
own security measures, their own precautions... if you want to call it that...
that just destroy any chance you have of accomplishing anything.
Q: How is
Barry still happy in that situation?
L: I don't
know.
Q: See what
I'm saying? 'Cause I'd think if it's been on earth for years, the guy would
have to be half nuts for not being able to do it right.
L: I don't
know. Maybe he got to work on other crafts... maybe he got to do other
things... maybe he worked for other groups that were making progress.
Q: He
befriended the system... the system is your friend and it takes care of him and
he takes care of the system... it makes perfect sense...
L: Maybe it
was his life... I mean, if you, people really get into... you probably haven't
been around physicists... but, for the most part, people that are the most
brilliant... the most brilliant ones have tunnel vision, whatever their
interest is... there really can be no one else in existence that knows more
about it than they do. That is their life. They are complete morons outside of
that field of knowledge.
Q: Idiot savant.
L: Yeah,
they walk around in a daze... they have nothing... it is their life and when
they are involved in it... they are completely happy. And if you take them
out... even when they leave work, they walk around like zombies. I saw them all
the time at Los Alamos... they just seem displaced. And, if in fact Barry had
no wife or girlfriend, and he lived out at the base... I may have been seeing
him in that environment, because I have seen other people like that, who
just... this is their goal... your goal is to find out how this works... okay,
you know...
END OF TAPE
2 -- SIDE A
TAPE 2 --
SIDE B
Q: ... were
you full time at this point...
L: No, no,
I never made it to fulltime.
Q: How many
times a week did you go out?
L: Once or
twice... well, no, not even twice... well, yeah, there was a sporadic time in
there. It was about once or twice a week.
Q: That's a
really wierd life style. So you would go from... if I was only to film, which
is my obsession, once or twice a week and then, the rest of the time, I was not
allowed to talk about it... I'd go bananas...
L: Yeah,
that's what happens. Well, he even told me, you're not going to become
productive until you're on full time... so, just try and bear with us...
Q: And the
reason why you weren't on full time was...
L: I don't
know.
Q: Were
there outstanding investigations or...?
L: There
might have been.
Q: What's
life like at home now on these down days? Do you not know what to do with
yourself?
L: Pretty
much so... it was really strange.
Q: Did you
find yourself, this is a personal thing, but did you find yourself drinking
more... or...
L: I just
didn't do anything. I wound up on the days off driving out that way.
Q: That's
cool.
L: That was
when I did lie to my wife and say, I've got to go to work tonight, and I'd go
out and just drive out near the area... I didn't want to get stopped by the
cops... I didn't want to do anything... so I'd just drive... and I'd take
tremendous drives all the way up through Tonapop (sp?), which is two hundred
and fifty, three hundred miles, and come all the way around the other side of
the state and come back down in the morning. I was just orbiting the area, just
so I could... I don't know what I was doing...
Q: You were
probably getting obsessed with the work over there.
L: Well, it
was more than a fascination... it was... well... maybe they're going to be
flying it or something. I just wanted to be around there and...
Q: What
about your friends? You just can't talk to anybody at this time? Except for
Barry.
L: Right.
Q: Were
you?
L: Oh
yeah... a hundred percent.
Q: You
weren't telling a close male friend either?
L: No...
not yet.
Q: Was life
at home kind of shitty and that's another reason you were getting out of the
house?
L: Yeah...
well, it was getting wierd because of the absence every once in awhile... so my
wife countered with absence.
Q: Was she
supposed to be working someplace?
L: Taking
flying lessons.
Q:
Something's up in your personal life at this point in general and the absences
in the marriage are starting to fill space. Don't let me romanticize you... is
the nature of your fascination the fun of solving this propulsion problem or...
L: No.
Q: What was
it?
L: The fact
that it was an alien spacecraft...
Q: Well,
that's great... because that's the most romantic thing for all of us... the
most exciting emotion, I should say.
L: I mean I
had no idea, after I left at night, if things weren't coming and going from
other planets... I just had no idea... I just was thrown out into a different
world... so that's why I felt like I had to keep an eye on what was going on.
Though, I never did see anything.
Q: I have
to confess that when I... I have a very active imagination... that's why I do
what I do... and I actually scare myself when I write... I do... Alfred
Hitchcock used to say that all the time...
I literally
in writing will go too far and live in my head too long on a particular
subject... were you ever... were there ever negative feelings... there's an
excitement over this alien thing... is there ever literally a fear of an alien
thing?
L: Well,
the day I walked into the disc.
Q: The day
you walked into it... oh, inside.
L: Yeah...
that was a non-exciting, very ominous...
Q: It's
interesting because when you first glimpsed inside you were very excited...
although you knew it was odd...
L: Right...
it was odd. But this is after absorbing... all the work I had been doing was in
the lab...
Q: On
paper...
L: Yeah, on
paper... dealing with some components, but separated.
Q: Was
there stuff from the ship sitting in your lab?
L: Yeah...
that's what we were working on.
Q: Stuff
that was cut out.
Q: How big
was it?
L: Well,
some of it's big... the amplifiers themselves were about two feet in
diameter... four feet long... the reactor was about this big...
Q: This is
a whole other meeting, but when we get into scenes like that, we're going to
have to get into, before we get a draft, sketches... Not that I want the script
to be a blueprint or set dressing... but I want the brief description to be
accurate.
(SOUNDS AS
THOUGH MACHINE WAS TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
Q: ... when
they were flying these saucers around... to your knowledge.
L: You
know, I never noticed. It might have been right there, but at the moment...
(LAUGHTER)
L: ... I
really wasn't looking around.
Q: That
might be a license I take to...
L: I imagine
they would have.
Q: 'Cause
doing these kind of effects with a live video hasn't been done and would help
it look real instead of looking like NBC'S "Abudctions" the TV show
or something and doing things with handheld cameras and stuff... there's some
really cool techniques there I've decided to try that really would work just
for this and not... science fiction... we've seen all that real glossy
Spielberg-ie approach to this and I would like to do the slightly more
disturbing reality version of it...
Q: You
actually, during the flight tests, you could hear the pilot or operator
speaking?
L: No, I
could hear the guy who was sitting next to me communicating with the pilot. So
I could hear half the conversation with headphones on... well, I had a headphone
on... it was one of those... and he was...
Q: Sitting
outside?
L: No...
sitting right inside.
Q: Sitting
on the grass out front watching...
Q: No...
inside the hangar with the door open...
L: Inside
the hangar.
Q: So
they're in the hangar looking out the open garage door.
L: Yeah.
And it was just before it lifted off the ground... is when I had gotten in
there and I heard some talking but I hadn't locked on to what he was saying.
But the first thing I heard him say was Oma Prime Configuration Confirmed and
right after that the disc lifted off the ground.
Q: What's
the nature of its movement... what was the lift off like?
L: It was
slow and uneventful... it just lifted as if it was...
Q: Like a
helicopter or something?
L: Yeah...
but there was no noise other than just there was a slight red under the craft
right from the second hump on here... it was a blue corona discharge... just a
high voltage glow...
Q:
Constant?
L: Yeah
constant.
Q: All the
way to the ground?
L: No, just
off the bottom of the disc... it was a loud, not loud, but a noticeable hiss
and it dissipated very quickly... only about thirty or fifty...
Q: We need
to get this stuff exactly right and we're going to sell tickets based on that
if nothing else... they're going to see the real deal.
Q: We'll
get it right like guys do police work on a victim... although the CD stuff is
too expensive, we could get a photo shot and get it right.
Q: Actually
I've got a full CD system already punching away on a whole series of tests of
this right now...
Q: We can
own a toaster or something that we don't have to pay time on that we can just
keep showing...
Q: No, I
have a full cinemagraphics...
Q: You can
be toying around with (UNCLEAR -- too many people overlapping dialogue)...
until he says... that's what I saw exactly.
Q: I've got
a series of flythrus that we're replicating the test flight...
L: It
really didn't do anything exotic... it lifted up once to the left and to the
right...
Q: Was it
doing this stuff... or was it smooth?
L: It was
pretty much smooth, but it wasn't digital...
Q: The one
I saw moved digitally as it left. It was just still. It may not have been this
deal at all. But it looked a lot like it.
L: The
tests we saw later on from far away... it was tremendous digital moves.
Q: Well,
that's it... this is what excited me so much about it... because when I saw it
fifteen years ago no one was talking about this stuff, so I wasn't projecting
shit... and I saw the thing go... and stop dead again like a wasp... I thought
I saw an airplane coming towards me... which is so stupid... and this it
goes.... and I said, it's not an airplane coming towards me... and then it
goes... I was in the mountains, so I could see the entire Salt Lake Valley with
this German guy and this thing goes ZIPPPP and it was really gone. It was gone
like a flashlight moves... like it had no physics...
L: Right.
Q: Like
there was no physics to deal with whatsoever.
L: Right...
that's exactly how it moves.
Q: So I bet
you I saw some maneuvers that we were doing. Or maybe I saw some real...
L: Who
knows who was in there.
Q: Suddenly
I got my "abduction experience"...
Q: That's
when you got the first implant.
Q: I've got
a whole sequence of video tape for you of it lifting off the ground and doing
things and flying around, but the one thing I never asked was the test flight
at night... twilight or day?
L: It was
twilight.
Q: Perfect.
Magic Hour.
Q: We call
it Magic Hour.
Q: That's
great. Describe this incident for me. This little lift off... you were
inside...
L: It was
going on and Dennis came in and got Barry and I and said come on there's a test
flight going on... I want Bob to see it.
Q: Were you
surprised that there were such things as test flights at that time?
L: No.
Q: You'd
heard there was.
L: Yeah.
Q: Who told
you?
L: Well, in
the briefings...
Q: That
alone is another piece of startling information to me... when you first heard
that there were...
L: Yeah,
like when I said after there were amplifiers and a reactor... it was one thing
after another... it was kind of an avalanche...
Q: Yeah.
Were they test flying all of them or just the Sport?
L: Just
this model.
Q: So, they
rolled it out.
L: They
could have flown it out... they could have towed it out... I really have no
idea how it got out, but it was out there and it hadn't been...
Q: What did
you feel when you saw that?
L: Oh, it
was... it was great anticipation for it to take off, but it was strange,
because I think at the exact moment it left the ground, I wasn't looking at
it... I was noticing the frequency on the transceiver... that it was around 200
mega hertz, which I thought was odd, I thought... I didn't think it was
possible to communicate on a standard frequency with something that's
bending... working with the gravity amplifier... and, when I looked back over,
waiting for the thing to... it was already lifting off the ground. It was
inconceivable to me...
Q: You
didn't hear anything?
L: No... I
was just mesmerized. I only heard the hiss after I looked at it... 'cause I
thought it was just a random noise from somewhere, but it wasn't even anything
noticeable and it just stood there in the air... it was big just to be
standing... it should not be floating, I guess...
Q: Did it
lift off slowly... kind of like that and then just keep going up... or did it
kind of jump up for a bit and stop?
L: No, it
was an acceleration... a very slow and then stopped like that.
Q: Okay.
Not much of an ease out and then a little bit of a dip after it stopped.
L: Right.
Q: Just
like that.
L: Yeah,
just as if you'd made a correction...
Q: Yeah,
yeah.
Q: I think
showing it doing corrections is another thing... it's literally new in
cinema... I don't want to make everything such a big goddamn deal but...
there's a regular person flying this thing at this point.
L: Yeah,
but it absolutely did not do one of those...
Q: When it
moved sideways... did it tip and move?
L: Yeah, it
tipped.
Q: So thus
the idea of rolling down hill...
L: Yeah,
after I saw what they were doing, I...
Q: So, it
kind of has this almost walking (?) look to it...
L: Well, it
will as they come into density in the grounds... at different gravitational
levels it'll... it looks ridiculous when it's flying... but I guess none of
that is perceptible inside.
Q: That's
fabulous. I'm in to demystifying this and making them look ridiculous but will
a level of optical effects where you are sure what you're seeing is real...
L: It's
not... I mean that's exaggerated...
Q: But no,
but to show that there's a dip in the ground and when it hits there it mirrors
it.
L: Well,
it's not necessarily a dip in the terrain... it would be the density
underneath.
Q: Of the
atmosphere?
L: No, of
the ground itself.
Q: Oh, I
see.
Q: The
gravity strength...
L: The
density is... like is you're over sand as compared to bedrock... when you go to
bedrock, you're going to get a bump.
Q: That's
wild.
L: Because
the gravity's proportional to...
Q: How
long's this flight you watched? Seconds... minutes?
L: A couple
minutes.
Q: Was this
Wednesday night?
L: Yeah.
Q: All test
flights were Wednesday nights.
L: Yeah.
Q: Was the
ground... the dust underneath it moving? Did it disturb the ground?
L: There
was the slightest bit... and I don't think it was from that... I think it was
from the updraft... of it moving up... it just sucked up... and then it fell
back down... but there was no wierd swirling while it was in the air... it just
came back down...
Q: To your
knowledge could a person walk under it? Did you ever see that happen?
L: I never
saw that happen. I can't imagine what would happen if you walked under it... I
heard specifically, as if someone had done it, because Barry told me that if
you walk under it you can see only the sky above it. Because of the way the
amplifiers work, they're bending the light around it so if you stand here and
look above it... you can only see the clouds, cause your vision...
Q: That's
just the kind of thing that in the final script I would love... 'cause it's a
lie to you, but you've heard it, it's the kind of thing I would love to do in
the movie... something...
L: No, it
makes perfect sense...
Q:
Something that you've heard happen... that's as far a stretch as I would make
in a movie like this... is something you can say... alright, I didn't do that,
but I know that's what it does. That to me is very exciting, to show...
L: Well,
see I saw demonstrations like that with the amplifier in the lab so I know that
is probably what happens.
Q: Do you
know how to dramatize something like that? I don't know if it's with his
character or another character 'cause there's always the opportunity to put other...
were there other green scientists coming in at different points on this?
L: Not that
I know of... and there were only 22 in total.
Q: To just
have a character watching it fly... if we end up being able to do this... and
walk forward and have some anxiety like... the reason I ask that question is
it's not that far off the ground. What would happen... we've already
established that guys have died doing this... if one scientist or observer gets
a little carried away and starts to walk closer and someone else is... hey,
what... we don't know what is going to happen... that's Hollywood... but that's
dramatizing it without a big lie. Because there can be a sense... if your
character's watching someone walk under it... of wait... what's going to
happen... and we go to that character's POV and see the sky appear... it
explains a lot of things about flying saucers, which is how do they get away
with their being around and you don't see them all the time. You know, and
that's startling.
L: Well, it
depends on the vantage point... but you don't know what'll happen... I don't
know what'll happen if you walk directly under the locus of the amplifier... is
it like walking into a column (?) are you crashed or does nothing happen at
all. That I really don't know.
Q: I have
to assume a certain percentage of sightings are real... to some extent I'm like
you... if I read about "abductions" I start to feel like car sick, I
can't quite get a handle on it at all. To think about all the hovering these
things supposedly do if it killed anybody underneath it... there'd be a lot of
reports of crushed people.
L: Right.
And, in fact, Barry telling the story that that's what you'd see underneath, it
almost makes me think someone did that.
Q: I would
think if anything you just would incur the discharge from the high voltage.
L: Well, if
you're on top of it... if you touch it... but when it's that high up in the
air, I don't think...
Q: It would
be like the cyclotrons almost...
Q: But that
discharge disappears three feet after it takes off.
L: Yeah,
that's probably it's proximity to the ground...
Q: Okay,
that was the first time you saw a saucer go... how long were you at this job
before you got pulled off? Roughly.
L: I don't
know.
Q: Under a
year.
L: Yeah.
Q: Under
three months?
L: Five
months, maybe.
Q: Well, it
was December of '88 to April '89...
L: Yeah...
thank you.
Q: How
often did you see these flights? Were you allowed to see them all the time?
L: No that
was the only one I was allowed to see.
Q: So that
was the wildest thing you saw a saucer do?
L: No...
then there were times outside... after I had seen the test flight schedule...
that I went to see on my own.
Q: And that
was taking a risk each time?
L: Oh,
yeah.
Q: This is
great stuff.
L: That's
when I saw the most amazing...
Q: What was
the most amazing thing you saw?
L: That was
probably when I had other people out there... when Jim and Gene...
Q: This was
after the shit hit the fan...
L: Yeah, we
saw a neat test and it was... I mean... it was flying everywhere. It was really
neat.
Q: Same
one... just the Sport Model?
L: Yeah.
Q: And you
were now on the outskirts of the base hiding? Watching?
L: Yeah...
laying out in the desert.
Q: How many
miles away... can you guess?
L: We were
thirteen miles from there.
Q: And on a
hill so you were overlooking it, or something?
L: No...
there's the mountain range and it comes up over the mountain range and we were
laying out in the desert.
Q: So you
got a kind of low angle view...
L Right.
Q: And what
did it do? Was it doing all the step stuff?
L: It came
up and made wierd moves and blasted to the left and blasted to the right and
then at some point...
Q: Night
time?
L: Yeah.
Q: Was it
lit up... how did it look at night?
L: Oh it
glows. It works almost like a fluorescent tube with the amount of energy that's
on the craft... what you're doing is ionizing the air around it... they really
can't avoid that...
Q: How the
hell... that's why everyone sees them all the time.
L: Yeah,
unfortunately, that's just the way it's going to be.
Q: You're
seeing the air, not the craft. They're seeing the ionized air... they're never
seeing the craft.
Q: That's
interesting... this is fascinating... 'cause I've always read accounts saying
like this ball of fire... ball of light... and it's always blown my mind 'cause
there's metal in there... but the metal has to disappear so we're seeing the
ionized air.
L: Yeah, it
doesn't disappear it's just an envelope around it... electrons are screaming
off there and they hit...
Q: What
color is it?
L: It's a
sodium yellow color... almost like yellow street lights.
Q: Does it
get red or anything... does it change color at all?
L: I didn't
see it do that... it gets brighter or dimmer but I didn't see it change color.
Q: How long
was that flight approximately?
L: That was
quite awhile.
Q: Many
minutes.
L: Yeah.
Q: That
must have been really fun.
L: Yeah,
because everyone had seen it... that was a great relief. That was finally when
I had...
Q: Now...
let's go back 'cause I've jumped so far... what got you from that first flight
to being in a position of watching this with friends out there?
L: Well,
that's a lot of stuff happening.
Q: Well,
take it a little bit at a time... we don't have to finish it all today. Let's
just pick it up with... after you saw that first flight, were you now into... I
think it's ultimately going to be our job, I'm not going to worry too much
about it right now, but I think ultimately it's going to be our job to find a
simplified way of depicting the problem you were working on. And this is
something that will be hard to do and will take probably a lot of your help on
the specific dialogue... was there one... like was there a math problem that
you were dealing with the entire time? And was there a break through that you
came to or was it just generally working with your team? What was the nature of
it?
L: No, it
wasn't a math problem... it was... the first thing was identifying... we had
focused mainly on the reactor... and it was identifying (UNCLEAR -- sounds as
though machine was moved).... was number one.
Q: So we're
trying to find out... you had this... the fuel sample?\
L: Yeah.
Q: So you
were essentially analyzing this fuel sample.
L: Right.
Which was my contribution to the project because we did find out what it was.
Q: That's
really great for us... because... was there a break through moment of victory?
L: Yeah...
pretty much so.
Q: That's
fabulous... I mean I really couldn't make this story up any better to be
perfectly honest. Can I get a sense of team spirit? How many people were on
this?
L: Two. Me
and Barry.
Q: Shortly
afterwards the Soviets were involved in the program... was it then that they
were asked to leave the base?
L: No,
something else had happened. It had nothing to do with our project. But I know,
from what they told me, the Soviets were involved at some point and there was
some other really major breakthrough... something with the craft... and after
that the Soviets were never permitted back there. They were never given the
information either.
Q: We must
know some exciting stuff about this goddamn thing by now then.
L: I would
imagine so.
Q: Barry
had been working on it for years?
L: Well,
maybe, maybe he was working on other projects.
Q: Well,
let's put it like this... was there a sense from Barry that when you guys made
this breakthrough, that you concerned your contribution of great relief... that
the problem had seemed unsolvable?
L: It was a
big deal... but not that big of a deal. Not... oh, everything's easier now.
Q: Did you
hear what I said about European films... that this is the problem... and this
is your challenge and this is the most exciting thing you've ever worked on...
there is a way... I'm sure... of dramatizing this event.
Q: What was
the key to discovering it? Was it just luck and persistence or... how did you
come across what it finally was? Is it possible to put on these tapes?
L: Yeah, it
was simple tests, really. Just simple steps that they hadn't done.
Q: Was it
an angle that you came in with? I mean to try this...
L: Yeah.
Q: And what
was the nature of the angle that they hadn't thought of?
L: Well, it
was that they were making it more technical than necessary. They were doing
spectral analysis... they were doing x-ray defraction... they were doing
everything in the world to find out what the substance was... they were doing
chemical analysis, but... the bottom line is, the only time any of those yield
results is if it's a common material that we already have data for... that it
matches. 'Cause if it's a completely unknown and there's nothing to compare it
to... yeah, it shows up, but it shows up strange numbers and strange readings
and strange lines... and we just say, wow, what's that... so it was more of a
simplistic view of what's going on. The first thing was... well, where is the
gravitational wave coming from... that couldn't even be determined... there are
simple things that were done... firing a laser over the top of it...
Q: What
happened?
L: Well,
the only thing that can bend light is gravity. Is there a gravitational wave
actually being emitted from the element itself? Well, who knows... there's no
instrument to detect gravitational waves... well, if you take a laser and fire
it a great distance and then near the source of the laser put the element
itself... then hundreds of feet away put a piece of graph paper and make a mark
where the dot is... if there's any deviation at all you're bending light.
Q: Is that
the deal? Could you see a bend in the light with the human eye?
L: No, you
can't see the laser you just can see the dot.
Q: I see.
L: Other
things that were done...
Q: Did you
guys know about smoking up the room?
Q: You can
put on goggles, can't you? Goggles to see the laser.
L: No, not
really... not that type of laser.
Q: This is
probably a (UNCLEAR)... I'm making a wisecrack, but that's what we do.
L: It was a
helium neon one... if you have a high power argon one... bright blue beams you
can see... those are real visible, but there was no need for anything like
that.
Q: Poetic
license.
Q: I
recently did a laser beam with string and some fluorescent light, because the
laser beam didn't... the bad guys had a high tech (UNCLEAR -- volume low)
machine and, you know, like everything else in this picture, nothing worked...
and they're like oh, well, we can't use it... and I said just get a piece of
string... lit it with blue and fluorescent light and it was a little beam of
light.
Q: Just do
a reveal animation if you want to see...
Q: Part of
my job is to do the cheesy Doug Henning part of it...
Q: A low
budget David Copperfield.
Q: Well, it
looks like a laser beam in my shot.
L: But
there were some other tests that were done... the reason why we had to find
what was going on... if we knew the element... it was kind of the starting
point, then we could find out what the reactor was doing. After we find out what
it was and how it was working, we later discovered that the bottom of the
reactor was probably an accelerator of sorts. If anything it was like a
cyclotron... where particles would rev up to high speed and then be diverted up
and impact the element?
Q: They
didn't realize that at the time?
L: No.
That's almost exactly where... at the point they were at when they wanted to
cut into it.
Q: (GROUP
"HMMM")
L: What was
that group "hmmm"
(LAUGHTER)
Q: Well, it
almost makes fun of themselves... that's fabulous. Well, let me finish this
though. You'd worked on cyclotrons before?
L: No...
not cyclotrons... but accelerators.
Q: Okay...
and is that background what made you realize what this really was?
Q: The
beauty of this is... I don't want to insult Bob, because I'm completely
unscientific, but as we get closer... the fun of this stuff is... the guy who
inflates these garbage bags and they bring him in because he's got a different
point of view is able to say... of course this is working... because you're
overcomplicating it. We can come up with a visual... when we meet him... that
he is reminded of when he discovers what it is. That he's working with... what
did you say it is... it's not cyclotrons?
L:
Accelerators.
Q: We find
a visual shorthand regarding particle accelerators that reminds our character,
finally in his moment of eureka, what it is. There's ultimately ways where we
can use the real language, but have visual cues that go a, b, c... so the story
does turn into his tape... doesn't turn into a lecture... but it can still have
the fun of his odd point of view... or his eccentric point of view... or his
unencumbered point of view... is probably the best way to look at it... the
fact that the other guys who worked on this were encumbered... and he's unencumbered...
is part of the solution... which leads me to another kind of dynamic in this
kind of story... which is once you have your moment of discovery of victory...
you would normally, now I'm guessing, so again I'll apologize, wouldn't the
person normally be able to exercise that in some fashion... a patent... an
announcement... a paper... you know what I'm saying? Was the nature of this in
some way frustrating... was there a let down after this?
L: No,
because normally... even when you're working for larger companies or a national
laboratory... you normally can not patent anything anyway.
Q: The
company owns it.
Q: Did you
once say to me that you had to write down your own reports to some extent. Is
this my imagination... was there something to do with as you report there was a
sense of your paper was going on to someone who wasn't a scientist?
L: Well,
you always had to keep a log of everything you did.
END OF TAPE
2 -- SIDE B
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S4 - THE
ROBERT LAZAR STORY
TAPE 3 --
SIDE A
Q: Question
L: Lazar
Q: After
you discovered...
L: Right...
the fuel... it was really the beginning of the project because now we can
really ascertain how the reactor probably worked and we can up with a theory
and we had to prove that now... so there was a lot more work to be done... but
that was kind of a stumbling block until we knew exactly where to proceed
from...
Q: Was this
Barry beside you the whole time or were you coming into the room to Barry?
L: Barry
was always there.
Q: So there
was just a real sense of being in tandem. What was the nature of pressure... in
terms of guys with guns... in sense of military pressure... was that intense at
this time, or not?
L: Not at
this time, no. Later on it started increasing.
Q: Really.
During your work there... it started getting more and more pressure...
L: Yeah...
it was after the Russians left.
Q: Now
wasn't there some element missing at one time, too?
L: Well,
yeah...
Q: Was
there a chance the Russians were somehow tied to that?
L: No... I
was tied to that.
Q: Did you?
L: Yeah.
Q: Where
did you find it?
L: Well, I
found out where they were having... that's what the Los Alamos connection
was... they were actually working at Los Alamos and, at that time, I could get
anywhere I wanted to at Los Alamos. And if I couldn't get there, I knew people
who were there.
Q: Why did
you take some?
L: Well,
this is also after... it was after the Russians left, after the...
Q: Things
were really tense when you took some.
L: Yeah,
because they kind of thought there was going to be repercussions from the
Russians... that, you know, we want back in or we want the information and
there was just kind of a tension there and this is when... now I've already
seen all the goods... and now it's already beginning to wear off... so, now I'm
not as content as I was.
Q: So you
took it as a form of insurance against them?
L: Yeah.
Q: I have
to say something... this is the first time you've said that openly.
(EVERYONE
SPEAKS AT ONCE)
Q: No, no,
I'm not cycling the subject at all...
L: It's in
Jim Croissant's (?) script... but you never read it...
Q: No, I
never read it... no, all I'm saying is... I think it's cool... I think it's
really neat, but I just want to make the point...
L: Would
you get me some water, please.
Q: Forget I
said it, but, my only reason for that is that is that something that you want
to be known for... something you don't...
Q: Jon, you
can't editorialize, I'm dead serious... we want to hear the story... we'll develop
the script and we'll all be a part of that... but I certainly don't want to
start putting a do you want this, do you want that on this kind of conversation
when he's so comfortable.
Q: Alright,
I understand. Fine.
Q: The
point is... that kind of shit needs to be outside of this room.
Q: I
understand.
Q: We just
got into something interesting... which is key... although it's getting ahead
of the chronology... and that is two things... the level of military paranoia
is increasing while he was there... particularly after the Russians were asked
to pull out... which we suppose... correct me if I'm wrong... has something to
do with this discovery you never learned about.
L: Right...
right... some other major discovery was made and they were kicked out... information
not shared with them... and right after that the military involvement there...
or the pressure... the amount of guards substantially increased.
Q: What is
really interesting is that Los Alamos Labs is working in conjuction with S4...
what they're doing is analyzing...
L: No...
they weren't analyzing... they had no idea what they were dealing with.
Q: Why did
they have some then?
L:
Because... this is liquid gas (?) essentially... this substance was stored in
discs like silver dollar size and it was used in the reactors... the way it's
manufactured, these discs are stacked up...
Q: Kind of
like Vegas... put a silver dollar in and the wheel spins...
L: These
discs are stacked up... they're taken sideways, compressed and then lathed into
a cone... this cone is then sliced... like that... and only in that
configuration can these discs work... when one of those slices... which if you
look at one of those slices...
Q: Was it
easy to slice or hard material?
L: I have
no idea... it's very heavy and it will only work in that configuration in the
reactor... for all that machining that was sent to Los Alamos... and it was
sent under the guise of a new armor... and they were making test targets for
the armor... and I thought, that was great 'cause it was going in as a
classified material but they had no idea what they were dealing with. I knew
the place in Los Alamos where it was going... I knew the building... I knew
people that worked there... I've been in there... and it just really connected
a lot of stuff together for me... that everyone really doesn't know what
they're doing. Los Alamos had no idea.
Q: We're
ahead of our story, but when the shit really hit the fan for Bob personally he
decides to take out some insurance... he can get into Los Alamos all he wants
to... and take some of the stuff and keeps it... and basically this is...
L: Well, I
personally didn't take it.
Q: Okay.
Q: Can I
ask some quick questions?
Q: Ask all
you want.
Q: Your
knowledge of the breakthrough that caused the heightened security came from
Barry?
L: Yes.
Q: Barry
told you...
L: Barry
and Dennis.
Q: They
said we've potentially found out something here that's going to change life for
all of us around here... or was he more specific than that?
L: No, he
wasn't specific at all. Barry's the one that specifically told me that we're
not sharing it with the Russians. Dennis is the one that told me well we've had
some big break through and things may change a little around here and Barry
kind of filled in the gaps... well, we decided not to share it with our
buddies... and there might be some flak... so that's the way it was put.
Q: Did you
ever meet any Russians when you were there? Or was everyone so isolated?
L: The
Russians were there...
Q: Why the
hell would America have the Russians in on something...
L: The only
reason I can see is if they had hardware that we needed to interact with...
Q: They
probably had some piece to the puzzle.
L: But I
remember dealing with Russians at Los Alamos and, if there's any way possible
to screw 'em, I'm all for it. Abso-fucking-lutely... ever single time we did
anything... we developed... in the interest of science and cooperation... we
were working on this super-conducting magnetic... and we had a big undertaking
to have this thing made... it was millions of dollars and we could have really
used it for our research, but we decided, well, we'll give it to the Russians
for six months to let them use it and then, you know, take it back... stuff
like this happened countless times... we'd let them borrow it for six months
and they'd say... we lost it... it's gone. It was in a train crash... it's
evaporated... and we'd never see it again... and this would happen countless
times... so actually when I heard the information it was like, good, yeah,
good... I'm glad... if we could have only shot them on the way out... I have
absolutely no... because they just ripped us off continuously.
Q: You
didn't actually have any interaction with any Russian physicists while you were
there?
L: No.
Coincidentally, someone I used to work with at Los Alamos was working at the
test site and this had made the papers... that the Russians were coming in to
do some joint nuclear test site inspection... and Joe, who was down at Los
Alamos, saw them come in the cafeteria and left. They went to another area and
he never saw them again. And I said, well, I found out where they were... very
interesting... a complete cover story... even made headlines and stuff and they
showed up at the nuclear test site, ate with everybody and then took off and
the only time they saw them leave again, was some time later when...
Q: I've got
to ask you something... this comes right out of high school. I mean I meant to
ask you this eventually... your story is so much about isolation and
compartmentalization... what happens at lunch time... is everybody in the same
room? Or are you there with one guy and a guard?
L: I don't
know because I always came there at 4:30 and I usually left at eleven.
Q: So you
didn't get to eat a meal there?
L: No...
Q: Huh.
L: So I
have no idea... maybe there's a bell that goes off and everybody goes some
where, but the only lunchroom I was ever in was at Area 51 so it's just one of
those things I don't know.
Q:
Fascinating.
Q: Okay,
so, if things started to get tenser after the Russians left... what was the
progression? What started to happen that made life miserable?
L: More
guards and the guards being more obtrusive, I guess.
Q: How
would that happen? What's more obtrusive? What were they doing?
L: Now
instead of being outside the door, they were in the room.
Q: This is
the room were you read the briefings?
L: Well,
and in the lab...
Q: What the
hell would they be doing while you're working in the lab talking to Barry,
standing there?
L: Just
standing there.
Q: One,
two... how many?
L: Usually
just one... even going into the bathroom, they would come into the bathroom,
not just wait by the door. They'd sit and watch you... take a leak in the
urinal... they would be right there and it would be just too... I got the
feeling that it was specifically to intimidate us...
Q:
Something big was discovered.
L:
Something happened and they wanted you to know... this is kind of lock down...
and they specifically hated me 'cause I felt like because I had never seen
anyone else, other than the first time, coming and going all the time... that I
was kind of the loose cog... because I was free to come and go as I pleased on
flights in and out... and no one else was doing that and I really don't think
that they liked that... they would rather me spend the night there...
Q: There
was just one guy on the bus or was that changed, too?
L: No...
that stayed that way.
Q: Were
they rude to you at any time?
L: Oh,
yeah, always.
Q: What
would they say?
L: Nothing,
nothing specific... like it was just general rudeness... I don't know how to
describe it.
Q: Did you
ever wiseoff to them? Or were you scared of them enough not...
L: No... I
never wised off to them.
Q: And
would they ever... they would tell you were to go and what to do? Things like
that?
L: Yeah,
just... stupid things... it's a long hallway to the bathroom and you'd be
walking down there at a normal pace and he'd just give me a butt from behind,
come on, we don't have all day... stuff like that... it was like... get off my
back.
Q: He would
touch you? With his gun.
L: Yeah.
Yeah.
Q: Did he
have a rifle or a sidearm?
L: I don't
know, he was behind me. They all had rifles... I'm sure they had sidearms, too,
but...
Q: Was he
pushing you with a rifle butt?
L: I don't
know... I just felt a...
Q: Yeah, we
don't have all day.
L: But I
couldn't believe it, when that happened.
Q: That
obviously shows some disrespect...
L: There
was great disrespect between them and us. So it was...
Q: Now,
this is interesting. What can the source of this be? Was there a sense of...
there's a club sense in the military in general and there's a club sense in the
scientific community...
L: But why
would they have anything against us? We're on the same side, unless whatever
happened...
Q: Someome
probably fucked up on the scientific side that somebody didn't like... maybe
somebody fucked him over.
L: Right,
and again that brings to mind the report with the aliens and the military...
Q: Which
report?
L: There
again... there's the pseudo science going on and military intervening so... we're
seeing a low level repeating of that if that in fact is real... so it was just
too confusing... it was disturbing... I didn't know...
Q: So it
could be a sense... it could have been a sense within the military side of
this... that the scientific side... there were frustrated with the scientific
side -- an elitist manner...
Q: Or that
the scientific side had allowed something to get out... if people knew there
was a break through and... this is just pure speculation, but evidently the
military side was upset at the scientific side because...
Q: How else
did the atmosphere change... okay the guards... we know... more guards... what
about personnel... were there other ways of telling something could be going
down?
Q: What was
Barry's attitude... was he just as chipper as always?
L: Yeah...
Barry really never changed.
Q: Barry
seems like such an odd duck to me. Here's a guy, totally out there...
L: Well,
he's not totally out there... he's just a guy at work. He's not anything.
Q: But the
guy has no wife that I can tell of... that's just amazing.
L: But I
didn't see him enough... I was seeing him sporadically... every other week here
and there...
Q: Was he
happy for your company? Did you have a sense of that?
L: Oh yeah!
Q: Do you
have a sense of his working in isolation other than with you?
L: Yeah...
he was happy to see me.
Q: So he
may have been a guy, to some extent, in a very solitary position except for
when you came.
L: Right.
Q: That's a
good dynamic.
L: That's
when we started fooling around... like I said... we had the reactor running and
checking the field out on it and bouncing stuff off of the top of it... doing
stupid stuff.
Q: When was
the first time that you saw that that could happen? Was that in its own way a
discovery?
L: No...
that was just something Barry had on...
Q: Barry
had the field on many times before that?
L: Yeah.
Q: And what
exactly did you see? What did you bounce against it?
L: A golf
ball.
Q: So you
have an invisible magnetic field...
Q&L:
Gravitational field...
Q:
Gravitational field...
L: Well,
the first thing was... you started the reactor, put the reactor under and the
ray (?) was just sitting on the table and then he'd turn the reactor on and
he's say, touch it. And you'd feel... it's almost like if you had two magnets
in your hand, but with no metal at all... as you put your hand closer to it,
you could never actually touch the metal reactor... which is pushed solidly
(?)... and on the base of it, he'd say okay now try and move it...
Q: Was
there any sound?
L: No,
no... total silence... and to move it... you could not move it at all... it was
just locked in time and space essentially... it was just completely
immovable... then you could feel that the field was almost elastic on the top
and that's when we were bouncing things off it... and he wailed a golf ball at
the top and it rebounded off and there's this suspended ceiling and it blasted
one of the tiles and some of the stuff came down and the guard wasn't in the
room, so we had an emergency clean up before the guard saw us doing anything...
that was the only time we were concerned about...
Q: Did the
dust fall in the field?
L: No... it
just fell around...
Q: If it
had, would it just have stopped in mid-air...
L: I don't
know... that's interesting.
Q: Well, if
you poured liquid over it...
L: It would
just run down the sides...
Q: Did you
ever do that?
L: No, we
did all kinds of silly things though, but...
Q: That
would be another small thing to take license with that we ought to do... as
Barry demonstrates it, we move into Bob... that's great stuff... that kind of
effect done well, so you absolutely believe what you see, is better than an
entire spaceship attack on some wacky...
Q: ... the
black holes that were created in the lab and the black discs...
L: Well,
just one disc... the bending of light... that's when they had one of the
amplifiers off the craft connected to the reactor and focused it down and you
could see through it and then there's just a black dot where you can see all
the light was being bent away from the focal point... that was amazing...
Q: That was
like hallucinatory, I would think...
L: Yeah,
right, that's exactly what it does... because the absolute first thing you did
was try to look at it out of the corner of your eye, expecting it to move...
Q: Can you
put your hand through that?
L: No, you
couldn't stick your hand by the...
Q: What
would happen?
L: I don't
know... but he just said, don't do that.
Q:
Alright... so, I asked... Barry didn't seem to change much, but was the
atmosphere on the...
L: No...
another guy I met was Rene and he... I didn't spend a lot of time with him, but
he was more or less working with another guy somewhere else, but he's the only
other guy that I met...
Q: And how
was he... was he affected at all by the increased security?
L: No, not
really.
Q:
Everybody was still happy in their work...
L: Yeah,
more or less.
Q: So the
guards were tougher... something had gone down... we don't know what... where
does this lead us in your personal story... you were continuing to work...
Q: How many
days a week now?
L: Ahh...
still only one or two... I mean, not a lot... not even two days a week...
Q: It's
hard for me to imagine you doing work this important...
L: Yeah,
but what was happening, coincidentally, not coincidentally, but simultaneously,
I should say, now... this is probably what prevented me from going on full time
right away... at that time, my wife was having an affair without me knowing...
and she's doing all the communication over the phone... so they pulled the
brakes, and I only found this out after, they pulled the brakes on essentially
letting me in, because now they're kind of at an impasse of what to do...
because now they have a candidate for mental instability for social problems at
home... marital problems at home... and they're more or less waiting for this
to come to a head... sitting there listening in to a soap opera every day on
the phone and waiting for it either to dissolve or come to a head or
something... and I think that was the lag time that we're looking at.
Q: So you
yourself may have been wondering why you weren't making it...
L: Right,
right... and essentially at one point they just didn't call me back and then I
began to wonder what's going on and it's in your imagination... that's what
kills you because now time goes on and, you know, now what the guards have told
me is beginning to echo in my head... why am I home and there's no one watching
me now.
Q: What's
echoing in your head?
L: Well...
something about we do what is absolutely ever necessary to keep this secret, so
on and so forth...
Q: Was
there a threat in that?
L: Oh,
yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Q: So, they
were suggesting they'd kill you.
L: Oh,
yeah. No, ifs, ands, or buts...
Q: Did they
say... we'll kill you? Did they say it outright?
L: No...
not at that point.
Q: This was
after things got worse...
L: No this
was before. This was way before.
Q: That was
early... part of the welcome to the place...
L: Right.
Q: But you
were remembering it more now?
L: Ahh...
Q: Was it
repeated?
L: No, it
wasn't repeated.
Q: What did
you do while you were waiting for the callback?
L:
Nothing... just tried to continue on with life as normal...
Q: Without
meaningful work... that must have been difficult.
L: Yeah,
that was really difficult... and it began to get really tough, and that's when
I started telling someone... that's when I started speaking to Gene about it.
Q: Is that
who I met?
L: Yeah. It
was actually a relief to tell him... and...
Q: What
brought you to tell him finally?
L: I don't
know... I just began to worry... I don't know if it was unfounded... I don't
know about what...
Q: Did he
notice the change in you?
L: Oh,
yeah. You can ask him about that. He... ah... it was a great relief to unload
on him and everything and that's when we went out and saw the test flights and
so on and so forth...
Q: Is that
the night you unloaded?
L: No... it
was some time before... it was kind of a slow unloaded... you kind of tell him
a couple of things and then... the only place I would talk to him... I wouldn't
talk to him in my home... it was either in his car or walking outside
somewhere... I didn't trust anything... 'cause I knew the level of technology
that was going on... I knew what the guys were capable of... so it would just
be in person...
Q: Could
they be watching at this time?
L: Oh,
yeah... there was no doubt about it.
Q: That's
bad news for us.
L: There's
no doubt about that.
Q: How can
you tell?
L: Well, as
I'll get into... they've turned up at places where they'd be people outside...
all kinds of things.
Q: What's
happening with your wife? Now you still don't know this is going down... that
she's continuing this affair and you're home...
L: Right...
now I'm home and she's disappearing at night. Taking flying lessons... but I
knew you had to have so many hours of night flying to get your flying
license... so it made sense...
Q: It was a
good cover...
L: Yeah.
Q: So why
didn't they just leave it like that? Why did they have to tell you anything?
You would have discovered it eventually on your own. Did they finally tell you
this... or what happened then...
L: Well,
yeah... there's a lot of events that lead up to that. But... I eventually...
well, after I told Gene it was kind of a... again a chain reaction took
place... then I told her... and then I told... Gene had recently met John
Lear... this is how I got to know John Lear... and found out that he had... we
wanted his telescope... he had a big Celestron 8" telescope... so we told
him a little bit about it... not as much as I had told Gene... just enough to
get him to bring his telescope so we could see what was going on... that's when
we were actually able to see... an 8" telescope from 13 miles yields a
pretty good picture of the disc...
Q: Did you
film through it?
L: No, we
couldn't... it was just to see. I looked pretty good.
Q: Was that
one night or a number of nights?
L: Well, it
was a number of nights since we got away with it on the first night, we were
just compelled to keep going back and...
Q: Always
Wednesday?
L: Always
Wednesday night. At that time. Then... what happened after that? After that...
Q: Can I go
back for just a second?
L: Sure.
Q: When you
were waiting for the call to go back, and the call wasn't coming because he had
been monitoring your phone calls between your ex-wife and her lover and you'd
go out and talk with Gene... did you know that they were surveilling you?
L: Yeah.
Q: How did
you know?
L: In
fact... the first time I had seen that was, I believe, when I went to John
Lear's house and when I pulled up in the driveway... a car pulled up across the
street and I just stayed there... and when I left, they left and several hours
later... at night... I was asleep and I woke up and looked outside the
window... the kitchen window... and the car was parked directly across the
street... now that's an overt showing to me... they could have hide around the
corner somewhere, but they...
Q: They
probably were hearing you telling people.
L: Well,
how could they?
Q: Well,
maybe not, but they had some sense... they wanted to threaten you.
Q: If you
went to John Lear's house... they certainly knew you were there to talk
about... because they knew he was involved with UFO's...
L: Right...
and then going around with Gene... it was just once in awhile you would just be
followed and then the most overt showing occurred a little later on and, at the
time, I was going to work out with my friend's girlfriend, Shelly... and I just
go to this Family Fitness Centers... and we'd leave... well, at first, it was
either this friend Shelly or Mario I'd go with. And Mario and I left one night
to go there at night in my 280Z and I started bringing my gun with me, 'cause I
started getting scared... So, which, at that time I had an Uzi, so I left it on
the console...
Q: Is it
legal to have an Uzi here or is that illegal...
L: Yeah...
so I just carried that with me and it just began... we went and we parked the
car. Now, I'm wearing shorts, so I can't...
Q: Carry
your Uzi...
L: Yeah,
can't carry my Uzi and I left my wallet and I just covered it with a towel or
whatever was in the back... over the center console... left it in the car...
and locked the doors and Mario and I went out... we came back, and he goes
around the other side and opens the door... but the door wasn't even closed...
both doors, the driver and passenger side, were both ajar... and I said, God...
but nothing was taken... and I thought, oh, gee what a stupid mistake... it's
impossible, but I remember locking the door, so, it was two nights later we'd
go back to work again, and this time, same deal, had the gun, wallet, same
place, covered up... and we go and we actually make a joke about it... we lock
the doors and we close them... and we're trying to open the doors... we're
shaking the car back and forth... acting stupid like, you think it's closed
now... well, it seems to be... so we go inside... just thinking we were stupid
that time... we come out about an hour and a half later and both doors of the
car are wide open and nothing's disturbed in the car... and I'm going... this
is really strange.
Q: Was Gene
with you?
L: No, just
this guy Mario... and, at that point, he got really scared.
Q: Sure.
L: He knew
I was doing some kind of crazy thing... so I had him start the car...
(LAUGHTER)
L: Mario
remembers that well...
Q: How do
you get someone else to start your car... what do you tell them?
L: I just
said start it... I just want to see if it's running right... he knew it was...
Q: About a
bomb and he started it anyway?
L: Yeah.
Q: That's a
good friend.
L: Yeah...
I looked underneath... I don't know... now my imagination's running away with
me... So I get back to the house and Mario, not surprisingly, didn't want to go
with me the next time... so I went with Shelly... we left... came back... and
she had left her car in the driveway... and her doors were wide open in the car...
her seats slide back and everything was gone through when we got back to the
house. And it just seemed like nothing was being done other than someone
letting us know...
Q: You're
not alone...
L: Yeah...
you weren't alone... it was just to aggravate... not to aggravate me... but...
Q: Well,
this would scare the living shit out of me personally.
L: Yeah, I
always thought there was someone somewhere and it was an extremely... now I'm
beginning to think, well why are they treating me like this... is it going to
escalate further? So...
Q: Did you
call Dennis or anybody?
L: No...
same thing as before... as I called... no one here by that name... blah, blah,
blah...
Q: So there
was no one you could turn to at this point.
L: No...
there was no one I could turn to and now it kind of starts getting scary for
me... though maybe nothing was happening, but it was in my mind... then... I
spoke to... it was originally Gene, I think, that said, what you should do is
probably tell a news reporter or something... and, for whatever reason, just in
case anything happens... or what... so...
Q: So...
but... now, I'm sorry... but you hadn't been out yet with Gene to the...
L: Yeah, we
had several times...
Q: But you
hadn't been caught...
L: No... we
hadn't been caught... wait, am I leaving out the...
Q: Because
it did escalate significantly after you were caught.
L: Yeah,
but I'm trying to get to the last time now... did that happen before...
Q: Well,
you can look at your notes... I don't want you to get stuck on chronology just yet...
but the point is during this period you're getting more and more paranoid...
this has got to be hell... cause you've got to have an instinct that life at
home sucks... you don't know why exactly...
L: Yeah,
just something wierd... but...
Q: What was
your wife's reaction to being told you were working... when you told her you
were working on UFOs, did she believe you?
L: Yeah,
well, after we all went out to see a test...
Q: You
brought her as well...
L: Yeah, I
think the second time she came out as well...
END OF TAPE
3 -- SIDE A
TAPE 3 --
SIDE B
Q: Third
time...
L: Third
time... umm... we wanted to go out... Tracy's sister was in town... again...
Q:
Ex-wife...
L: Yeah,
Tracy, my ex-wife, her sister Kristen was in town and we were going... me,
Tracy, her sister and Gene were going out again. We're getting ready to go and
John Lear pulled up in the driveway... just because... we purposely didn't
really talk to him because we knew John then was a little crazy... cause we'd
heard that he was into the UFO stuff and one of the only reasons I had
originally contacted him was thinking I wonder if any of this stuff that he's
accumulated is true. And he just let me...
Q: Did you
know him before all this?
L: No. And
he... actually the reason, let me digress for a minute, the reason I told Gene
was, coincidentally, and Gene was just a pseudo-friend... more than an
acquaintance... but not a really good friend, but I really didn't know very
many people out here... at that time, cause I just kept to myself... he was just
a guy on my photo staff who I kind of spent some time with and he had
coincidentally, he's a real estate appraiser, had appraised John Lear's
house... cause John Lear was getting it re-financed or something... and had at
one time, while I was working on the project, started telling me about, yeah,
there's this guy and about aliens and stuff like that... and I'm thinking to
myself... this is a scream, hearing this and not being able to say anything...
Q: Oh,
that's great...
L: Anyway,
that was my... that was the reason I first started talking to Gene. 'Cause that
began to be big news here right after... John Lear started giving lectures at
the libraries around here... so it was in the papers shortly after that.
Q: Is he
the son of the Lear jet man?
L: Bill
Lear... yeah.
Q: So, this
is a wealthy kid?
L: No, his
father wrote him out of all the inheritance and all that stuff...
Q: So he's
a full time UFO guy?
L: No, he's
a pilot -- part time pilot...
Q: How old
is he?
L: John
always looks like he's sixty... but he's probably 49, I guess.
Q: Okay...
so did he join you?
L: Ah,
yeah... he showed up and we... there was no way we could leave without him
coming along and we really didn't want him to come along... but there was no
way out of it... so he did. We went up there and we brought Geiger counters...
binoculars... telescopes... radios... guns... I mean, we were ready for
anything... so we go up there and we put everything in the trunk... and, but
hide the gun underneath the spare tire...
Q: Uzi
again?
L: No, this
was just a pistol. We were up on the highway trying to decide where to go and
everyone suggested that we stay there and I insisted that we go in further...
which was a colossal mistake... so we got in the car...
Q: This is
closer than you ever watched before?
L: Right...
Q: So in
some sense this was progressive... each time you took a greater risk.
L: Oh, we
were going to continuously do that...
Q: This was
a dirt road now... you're all in one vehicle?
L: All in
one vehicle. And we purposely had to get a rented car to fit everyone, cause
everyone only had cars with two seats in them... everyone, coincidentally owned
sports cars, and Kristen was from out of town and she had rented a car...
Q: What did
your wife think of all this stuff?
L: She
thought it was neat. All of a sudden she's getting into it. So, we all pile
into the car and drive out and wait until about dusk and go down on the road
and we get in real close and we saw... well, initially when we're up on the top
of the road, you could see this (UNCLEAR) sweeping the air... just looking for
anybody.
Q: A
helicopter?
L: Bronco's
just blasting through the desert all over the place... and we just stayed far,
far away.
Q: So you
were up on a ridge.
L: Yeah,
the highway's up on a ridge.
Q: Did you
have your lights off?
L: Well, it
was daylight at that time... and we put the tire iron out and made it look like
we were changing a tire... did the whole... in fact this is all on video
tape... even us doing the fake tire thing... then it started getting dark...
the security people started dissipating and then we turned the lights out and
drove down the road... just keep it in first gear so we don't have to hit the
brakes and have brake lights come on... cause they'd see that... so we roll
further than we've ever gone and stop and the way we'd stop was we'd just put
it into park and it's go GRRRR-WHAM... so we didn't have to hit the brakes.
Then everyone forgot about it... that when you open the door the dome light
comes on... so it was like a spotlight in the middle of nowhere and it was
almost as if the dome light was connected to headlights in the desert... we
open the door and they just went... around us and we knew we were dead. So the
concensus was we didn't want them to catch me so we turned around and started
leaving real fast... but you could already see that there were Jeeps that were
heading us off... closing us off at the pass... so we were absolutely caught
and dead... but no one had come to us yet, so we stop in the middle and I get
out and I run out into the desert... then... now the rest of this was from them
because I was too far away to see... and I'm just laying down in the bushes,
but I took the gun with me and they, with the trunk open...
Q: That was
smart... did you think you might be killed?
L: Yeah.
Yeah, I was really scared then... they whipped the trunk open and set up the
telescope and then John Lear gets out and says the stupidest line ever... so
they came blasting out in the Jeeps with the guns and everything...
Q: Now
these are the...
L: Desert
camouflaged... no name, rank, insignia or anything... they're just...
Q:
Nicholson is John Lear...
Q: Right.
L: But the
guards comes out and John says, I can't remember what he said exactly, but,
We're not breaking up a dope deal or anything are we? I mean a real stupid
thing... and the guards just stood there in amazement... They said, what are
you doing... and John said, we're looking at stars. They know he's just set it
up and John says... yeah, we've been here for awhile. And they watched us leave...
I really didn't hear any of this... I was just told this... and then they
talked to them for awhile... and they said, well, you need to get out of
here... you're close to a military installation... blah, blah, blah... just
leave. So, they said, okay, fine... they pack up everything, but they don't
leave. And they just see the guards drive off. Now, unbeknownst to them, to
anyone at that time, it's absolute totally pitch black... you can't see your
hand in front of your face. They drove fifty feet and stopped and stood on top
of the car with the night vision scopes watching everyone... I mean from here
to there... they were right there, but no one could see them. And, we're
sitting there and I come back... and it was kind of a jovial type of a relaxed
mood and Gene and I frequently joke around a lot and we were saying stupid
things... and, as I came back in from the desert, slinging the gun... I said
something to Gene like, well, I told the attack force just to lay low until
those guys were out of site... and Gene said, well, that's good, okay... and
the guys on the Jeeps don't know what's going on...
Q: Could
they hear you?
L: Yeah,
they heard us fine... cause later this came up at the briefing and so they went
to arms with the guns...
Q: Attack
force...
L: Yeah,
they didn't know if we were joking around or what... but, they're just like,
what attack force... and plus a guy just came out of the desert with a gun...
so there're like, oh, no...
Q: You
couldn't make this up.
L: It's an
amazing scene... so we're sitting there and now our car is pointing away...
Their vehicle is pointing towards us and they're all there and we can't see
them and I'm leaning against the bumper of the car at the back and I put the
gun back in the trunk, close it up, and I said, we better get out of here...
and we started talking about... well, we saw cars up there and... I don't know
where they went... so on and so forth... and I said, I didn't see anything... I
was in the bushes... and I think Gene even interjected there and said, with the
other guys, right?
L: And I
said, oh yeah...
Q: I'm
sorry, but I actually blanked for a second, because I was thinking of how to do
this on film... would you back up for me...
L: Okay,
I'm just sitting...
Q: You've
returned... you said...
L: I've
returned... I've put the gun in the trunk underneath the tire... I said, I
didn't see where the other cars went that were up by the road and looked like
there were going to cut us off and I said I just had my head down in the
bushes... and Gene said, with the other guys, right. And I said, yeah.
Another... so we were just joking around with each other... so we're all
collectively just staring out that way, deciding well, should we leave or
should we stay... it's public land essentially, we think... so, at that time,
we hear a THUD on the ground and this little green glowing dot rolling towards
us... one of the guys dropped the night vision scope...
(LAUGHTER)
L: And
we're just completely shocked by it... that this thing is rolling across the
road and then you see it just get picked up in total blackness... all you see
is just this little green dot... so... that was the decision... so I said,
let's just get the hell out of here... cause we knew exactly what it was and
then Kristen, Tracy's sister, was kind of a little ditz and said, did someone
drop a lighter... did any of you guys drop a lighter... just get in the car...
let's go. So we drove off. Now we came to the road... now they don't have any
jurisdiction over us... but they had called the Lincoln County sheriff, so we
came up to the road and the sheriff was waiting there and he just said,
stop....
(TAPE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
L: They can
hold you there...
Q: Did they
take you to jail?
L: No...
they can hold you and question you for an hour and then they must let you go.
As it turned out, Kristen was going to law school...
(LAUGHTER)
L: ...
and...
Q: How old
was Kristen?
L: Ah...
she was older than Tracy, so she was about my age. And so she looked forward to
a confrontation with either the military or the police just because she knew
all her rights and all that stuff. So the police get there and... am I leaving
out a part... what happened...
Q: I don't
think so... this jives perfectly with what I've read and seen... but it gets
very interesting when the police get involved...
L: Well...
we didn't go to a police station or...
Q: When
they opened the trunk?
L: Yeah...
what happened was another great John Lear move... if we'd only left him home...
they said, well, can we see I.D.'s... so everyone said, well, we don't have our
wallets... okay... so he said, what's your name... what's your name... and we
told him our names... and it seemed like he was gone for a... then they asked
John and...
Q: Were you
telling them false names or yours?
L: No, we
told them real names. And then he asked John and John said, oh, wait, mine's in
the trunk... and we're all mentally trying to tell John... do not open the
trunk... and he opens the trunk, cause he did put his wallet in there, and
everything in the world is in there... and the cop, of course, walked over to
the trunk with John and he opened it up and shined his light in there... and
the first words out of his mouth were... what are you guys doing here... we're
out star gazing was, I think, the cover story... they said, you're out star
gazing... you've got a Geiger counter, what else did we have... I mean all
kinds of ridiculous stuff there... shovels and everything... and you guys are
out star gazing... and the cop said, well, what is all this stuff for... and we
were all just kicking rocks around... we couldn't even think of a lie to tell
him... and he said, okay, well, I'm going to have to search the car. And
Kristen says, no... and then he gets a call from the guys... the base or the
guys directly and then he comes out and he says... where's the gun? So then we
knew he absolutely talked to them and he said... originally they saw four
people in the car, now there's five... or whatever the hell it was... and some
guy walked in from the desert with a gun... and we said, we don't know what
you're talking about... that's crazy. So she went back and forth with him...
and he said, well, I've got reasonable cause... she said, well, what is it...
so he called in another cop... and another cop comes and the reason he called
the other cop, he actually went to start his car and it wouldn't start... now
we never did pick up on this so he called the other car and he made it know to
us... I'm getting a tow truck, cause we're going to tow it down to the police
station and strip it... well, the tow truck was for his car because it wouldn't
start. So he called the other cop to come over so he could drive him out of
there. Now we had no idea that that was the deal and we thought he was just
playing with the mike and then here comes the tow truck... and we're
thinking... ahhh, Kristen, you better know what the hell you're talking about
cause they are taking us out of there. And the funny thing was the cop kept
talking and it really seemed like they were going to tow the car and we were
going to go to jail and stuff like that unless you just tell me where the gun
is and then it will all be over... which is probably a lie anyway, but, I
figured I was getting everyone into trouble so I went up to the cop and was
trying to interrupt him to tell him where the gun was, but he wouldn't shut the
fuck up, cause he was talking to this other cop and, as soon as he stopped
talking, he turned around and said, well, I can only legally keep you here an
hour... it's been 59 minutes... so, I don't know why you won't let me search
the car... and I was so thankful that he didn't let me admit what was going on
and then he started reading our names back to the base... and I don't know if
it was coincidentally, but when he came to my name, he went in the car and closed
the door and then spoke to them... then he came out and said you guys can go.
And we got in the car and left. And then the next morning I was called like the
normal time, but instead of the lady it was Dennis and Dennis said, well, I'm
going to meet you today and... like nothing had happened... but we've got to
drive out to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind of a closed,
auxiliary Air Force Base in the middle of nowhere up here and he said, I'm
going to need a ride, so we're going to take your car... is that okay? I said,
yeah, sure.
Q: Were you
suspicious?
L: I was a
little suspicious, but you know in the back of my mind I thought, they didn't
make the connection, that's great... or else Dennis would be pissed. Maybe it's
just something else and this is when they took... we drove up and about
nine-tenths of the way there... we're entering the town of Indian Springs and
it's been like an hour drive.
Q: Where
did you meet Dennis?
L: Down at
EG&G.
Q: Okay.
L: And it's
been like an hour drive and now we're just entering the town of Indian Springs
and he says, the only time he ever said anything jokingly was he said, Bob,
when we said it was a secret project we didn't mean for you to bring everyone
you knew out to see test flights.
(LAUGHTER)
L: And then
I already knew... you know, we were there and that they knew and the whole
thing. Oh, before that... cause that reminds me of something else... before
that we were setting this thing up, Gene and I, so we decided to talk in code
over the phone... so we were talking about going fishing and I guess on the
phone we said, yeah, well if anything goes wrong... the story is that you guys
were going and it would be more suspicious for me not to go, so I went along
with you and you dropped me off at the stop sign up on the road and I had
nothing to do with it. So the first thing that they say, this was just over the
phone between Gene and I, the first thing they say when I get in there, they
said, did you ever think we'd ever fall for the stop sign story... so I had no
answer for that and then that's when it started. More or less an
interrogation... and that's when they kind of got real...
Q: How did
that go?
Q: Now,
wait, you're out in Indian Springs, what kind of environment are you in?
L: It's
like an Air Force Base.
Q: And you
walk into a room with other people?
L: Yeah,
walk into a room that had... it was Dennis who came with me... and there were
two other guys there and they said we're waiting for a couple of people to get
here... and they were waiting for the guards that were there... now this is how
I found out the whole story... and also how I know that the guards didn't know
anything, 'cause I purposely made mention of a flying saucer to them and they
got the guards out of the room and they were extremely pissed after that. And
these were the guards... I guess they're separate and I guess they're external
from the base, which are a different group...
Q: Indian
Springs is shut down, you said, though?
L: Well,
you can go by there today and there's nothing ever happening there. I mean
there's not a soul ever visible and once in awhile if you just kind of stake
out the place, cause after this was all over, I just kind of monitored things,
once in awhile you'll see the strangest things... like a completely black
painted fighter will land there with no insignia on it... people will come out
of no where and do some stuff to it, go back in, the plane will take off, and
then it returns back to a desolate place... but you can see everything...
there's nothing hidden. It's the strangest place... I have no idea what goes on
there and it says "Auxiliary Air Force Base" right on the outside.
Q: There's
a military housing out there and it's all boarded up...
L: It is
like the eeriest place...
Q: That's
what's so great, cinematically, he's taken to like this ghost town Air Force
Base...
Q: Exactly.
L: Yeah,
but, it comes to life sporadically... for no reason and, you know, and then
shuts back down.
Q: Hiding
something in plain sight.
L: Yeah, it
is... it's on 95, if you want to go north of here, you can not go through it...
it's right alongside the road... the entire thing is an episode out of
"The Twilight Zone" and there's absolutely...
Q: How
intense was the interrogation?
L: That was
pretty intense. That's when they brought up the phone transcripts, printed
transcripts between my wife and the guy, Chris...
Q: First
time you were aware of that?
L: Yeah.
And then I saw that... well, you know, I skipped the GUFON story. Before
that... this is right after I had started talking to Gene... started telling
him... and right after we came back from Lear's house, I started looking
through his material... which was all stupid things... aliens are here to steal
frogs (?) because they need something... I mean, ridiculous things... either
that or they're going to eat us... and we had noticed that on a lot of the
information they had it was either from the Mutual UFO Network and everything
in acronyms... it was MUFON... and the Computer UFO Network, which was CUFON...
everything had an UFON name to it... we kind of thought that was funny... and
because Gene considered me a source of UFO information... he started calling me
BUFON... so, just as kind of a joke on the phone, I called him GUFON... it
became a running thing... that night... you know we did that, it was the first
phone call and I think he was calling me from a strange phone somewhere and he
said, BUFON, this is GUFON... we just did something stupid like that... I said,
yeah, what's going on... ah, nothing, just doing the normal stuff... just a
bullshit phone call, but if it was someone external listening to it... it would
have really sounded wierd now that I look back on it. So it was not twenty
minutes later, and this has always amazed me... twenty minutes later... and it
takes you twenty minutes to drive from downtown, that the doorbell rings, I
come over to the door and there is a computer printout with redline of that
conversation... BUFON, GUFON... the stuff we talked about... in little
brackets... like, just doing the regular stuff... that was bracketed... and
they said, we've got to have a talk about your conversation... and I was like
amazed.
Q: Who were
these people? Anyone you knew or had seen before?
L: No.
Never seen before, but the same type of...
Q: Suits.
L: Yeah,
suits that had come... exact same type of guys. And I knew I had signed the
order to do that. And I explained who GUFON was... what we were doing... I just
said, it's a nickname... and they had me fill out a form that said Gene Huff
AKA Gufon and his address and they said, do you have any other aliases?
(LAUGHTER)
L: And to
me it was hilarious, it was a funny thing... so that was the first occurrence
of the telephone...
Q: So this
was the first time you were told about your wife's infidelities in this sort of
deserted place... that's heaven.
L: Yeah.
Q: What was
the purpose of that?
L: Them
telling me? I don't know. I think it was just a smack in the face.
Q: They
were mad at you basically for talking.
L: Yeah.
Q: It's
wild.
L: I think
they were also telling me why... because nothing was coming of it... I really
don't know...
Q: What
else happened in the interview?
L: That's
when they physically started screaming at me... when the gun took out his gun,
out of his holster, and that's when they made it known in no uncertain terms
that if they felt that I was jeopardizing the secrecy of the project at all,
they would kill me, absolutely on the spot.
Q: They
said that?
L: Oh,
yeah, absol... right to my face.
Q: Pointed
the gun at your head?
L: Yeah,
yes. That story is absolutely true.
Q: Who did
it...
L: An
unknown, nothing, stupid guy.
Q: They
touch skin, or just point, or what?
L: They
just pointed...
Q:
Unbelievable.
L: Before
they had an M16 is what they usually carried and...
Q: Was the
guy in uniform?
L: Yeah.
Q: What
else did they ask?
Q: Was
Dennis there?
L: Yeah,
Dennis was sitting right there.
Q: What was
his attitude.
L: Totally
silent. He disappeared at that point.
Q: He
didn't have a gun pointed at you, so he was less important.
L: Correct.
Q: Did you
just return home after that and that was it?
L: No, it
went on a little bit further. Actually, you know, I think he pointed a rifle at
me.
Q: You
weren't struck or physically restrained?
L: No, but,
I'm telling you... you should know if it was a gun or a rifle... but this was a
really...
Q: I had a
gun pointed at me once and all I saw was a black hole.
L: It was a
really traumatic event.
Q: I saw
this black hole and I could have sworn there was a breeze coming out of it.
L: It was
too much stuff at one time... cause the thing with my wife, with the gun and
the people yelling at me... and it kind of all... it kind of went into a blur.
Q: Did you
think you were going to die?
L: No, not
at all. Well, it became... now everything was bouncing off of me... it didn't
matter... if the guy cocked the gun and put it in my face, it didn't matter,
now I was impervious to everything at that point. And that's when I cracked a
smile again... and, you know, right after he said, we'll have no problem
killing you... I can't even fake it... it just has to actually happen... and
that's when he said, implied that there had been other people that they had
killed.
Q: Was that
the first time you ever suspected that they had disappeared anybody?
L: Yeah,
for real.
Q: Was
there ever even rumors about that at the base?
L: No, no
one talked about that.
Q: Did they
show you death certificates?
L: No, but
they said... that's when I smiled and they said... do you think we're kidding
about this... would you like to see death certificates?
Q: This was
some nervous smile?
L: Right...
it just happens... but too much had happened in over the four or five
minutes... so now it just didn't matter what they said. And that's when they
brought the guys in... because I guess these other two guys that were in charge
of the interview hadn't heard the report and they came in and said that's the
guy... to me. And they said... something else to them... I don't remember where
it was that I inserted it... but somewhere in there I had said something
about... I inserted the term flying saucer...
Q: Did you
do it on purpose or...
L: Oh, no,
totally on purpose... because they were skirting around the topic... they said
they were in a restricted area because they were conducting restricted tests...
and I said, well, during the flying saucer test... you know, purposely like
that, but I can't remember how it was inserted in the wording and I mean, you
could instantly see the cringe on everyones' face... they really didn't want
any of that said... so... it.... they got the guards out and they finished
yelling at me at some length... and it really completely blurred past that... I
went back with Dennis and...
Q: Did
Dennis have any comment on the drive back?
L: Oh,
yeah, he had some negative comments...
Q: He said
you'd fucked up or whatever...
L: Yeah,
good job, Bob... but very minimal talk and we got back...
Q: Well,
this guy was not your friend?
L: No.
Q: He was
always a little distant.
L: Yes. Now
real distant. Now, when I got back after that, the more... people following type
of thing...
Q: They
harrassed the shit out of you because they knew you were talking.
L: Right.
Q: What was
the worst thing they did?
L: When
they shot at the Z.
Q: What
went down? You were driving along...
L: Driving
from just seeing Gene... and we had just been talking on the phone about a guy
named George Knapp, that had always been doing reports on Area 51 and stuff
like that... and I was going to go see him.
Q: You were
on the phone during this conversation?
L: I was on
the phone with Gene saying we were going to set up a meeting.
Q: From
here or a public phone?
L: From
here. And I drove to Gene's office over on Eastern and then said, well... he
had spoken to George... I don't remember exactly how the events went down, but
George said he was going to get a satellite link-up truck so they could just
take me somewhere, interview me, bounce it off a satellite and then get it back
to the station... that was really cool... and I said, okay, we'll do that...
we're just going to interrupt in the five o'clock news and say it... because
now, for some reason, I really thought I was in trouble... I just had to...
Q: For some
reason... you had a gun pointed in your face...
L: But...
it was... it just made more sense to me to say something publicly now, because
it would just be intolerable to...
Q: What did
you have to say to your wife when you came home? Did you confront her about
this stuff?
L: No,
right now everything was on hold... this was more important.
Q: Did you
go home?
L: No, not
really. She wasn't home yet anyway... so was out fucking some other guy... so
coming back from Gene's, there was this wierd on-ramp from Charleston to the
I-15 Fwy and, as I was driving, a car appeared next to me and, I typically
drive like a sixteen year old, I never let anybody get in front of me... as I'm
driving, I really didn't have time to play around with any one, but I went fast
and he went fast and stuff like that... I thought he wanted to race or
something... so, right when we came around the turn to get on the on-ramp, I just
jammed on the gas and took off. And he was riding along side of me the whole
time and I think he was trying to say something to me out the window... though,
I never did see...
Q: You
don't know who it was?
L: No, but,
just as I turned the corner, I glanced back like, now get away from me, and the
window was rolled down and all I saw was there was a gun pointed at me...
END TAPE 3
-- SIDE B
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S4 - THE
ROBERT LAZAR STORY
TAPE 4 --
SIDE A
Q: ... can
you begin... because the tape ran out right there when you were describing what
exactly happened when the other car pulled up alongside of you... you said you
froze?
L: Yeah, he
pulled up alongside of me... when I saw the gun, I froze and was still
accelerating, but I didn't make the turn and then I heard the gun fire twice...
it fired at the side of the car, you know, later finding the holes... and then
hit the rear tire... and I just went straight off the embankment off into the
ditch and he went around the corner and took off.
Q: One man
in the other car... two men?
L: There
were two guns. I'm almost sure. He took off, but I didn't see him make the turn
and I thought that he followed me down there and I just stayed, because I
thought he was walking up behind me... so I stayed and I just could not raise
my head to look, cause I was absolutely petrified... so I had my hands on the
steering wheel and I just stayed there and I was looking right at the ground
and I just stayed there and I just expected him... I mean I must have been
there like fifteen minutes... and I couldn't imagine what was taking him so
long to walk up alongside of me... and I finally... it wore off and I turned
and there was no car there and I looked back and then I finally got the car out
and then I had backed it up and, coincidentally, a city truck had come by...
Q: You had
a flat tire?
L: Yeah...
well the tire was hit... the rim was...
Q: I'm
surprised you could back up at all.
L: Well, it
wasn't a deep ditch, I backed up out of there and then a city maintenance truck
was coming by, a white truck with bags of garage on the road... picks up the
stuff... and he followed me all the way home. I said some guy shot at me and I
went off the embankment here and he was a nice guy... I went on Charleston and
just drove on the rim all the way home... probably five miles... and continued
to fuck up the rest of the car and then got there and called and told Gene what
had happened... and then from there went with Gene and went to the satellite
link-up and they interrupted the news.
Q: You went
straight... that's amazing. That is amazing! You told me about this... there
was more information about aliens... in the same room you went into there were
different briefs... and you kept going to the same spot... there were armed
guards up there... and that one of the briefs, at least, was this plastic
photograph... would you describe that again?
L: Right...
there were... a very odd book where, if you've ever seen any of the old Collier
encyclopedias they have... if you look under human anatomy they have several
clear Mylar pages and you could peel away the circulatory system and see bones
and peel away muscles and so on and so forth and see different layers... but
what they had in this book was really odd in that it would do that as you
turned the page... almost like the old 3-D postcards...
Q: It was a
book in fact?
L: Yeah, it
was much... it wasn't that cheap, I guess, cause you had to see them at certain
angles... but just, as you moved the page every just a few degrees, it would go
through the different layers and in one they had a hut of a house and it was
like a mud type house... and you'd move it and the grass would disappear...
move it... the mud would disappear... you'd see the superstructure... move it
and you'd just see the internal dwelling area... and to me that was amazing...
because I couldn't possible see how that could be done optically on...
Q: How
thick was the paper?
L: It was
just as thick as a piece of Mylar...
Q: Were
there hundreds of pictures in this book?
L: No it
was a lot of text and just pictures here and there.
Q: What
language was the text in.
L: English.
It seemed like the English was inserted... re-inserted in there.
Q: So who
made this book?
L: I don't
know.
Q: What was
the text about?
L: The text
was about living conditions here... about different... there was a guy that
lived in a hut... it was like a National Geographic book more or less...
Q: So the
aliens were reporting on us in our own language?
L: That
would be speculation.
Q: Okay.
L: Either
that or it would have been information that we compiled and gave to someone
else... but whatever it was, it was certainly unusual...
Q: Was the
text simplistic?
L: Ah...
yeah.
Q: What
would happen if you flipped the book over?
L: I'm
getting to that.
(LAUGHTER)
L: It was
very simplistic and it just showed what lived in a dwelling like that... but
the same thing... as you moved the page, this guy's clothes would drop... his
skin would come off his muscles... it would do that... and instead of sitting
there reading most of the text, I played with the photographs... because even
looking up close, I could not see...
Q:
Hallucinatory again.
L: Yeah,
you could not get to a point where it would not take place. You know, if you
had a 3-D card in certain lights and certain angles it just doesn't work and
you have to position it right, but no matter how this was, if you tilted it a
certain way, it worked... and to me I was fascinated by that. The book had two
front covers... if you flipped the book over, this is where the stuff about
Zeta Reticuli and other stuff would come from, cause now this seemed like,
though it was just a few pages that dealt with the alien craft, and origin and
so on and so forth, but not nearly in the detail of the other.
Q: Probably
there was some... I'm going to guess... probably you could connect that to a
period of cooperation that ended with these people getting killed. That there
was some level of cooperation, the aliens were trying to prove that they had
been around a long time... showing pictures they'd taken...
L: How can
there possibly... yeah, but I don't know... how can there be?
Q: Would
that fit in though, if that were the truth? Would that make sense out of this
book?
L: Yeah,
it's possible, but...
Q: I
mean... here's a spacecraft... here's a coloring book...
L: But
what... aliens sitting down with humans exchanging pictures... that sounds
ridiculous.
Q: Well,
they had autopsies, so they had aliens at one time... dead or alive... they
could well have found them and shot them...
L: You can
speculate forever about all the ramifications...
Q: Were
there any other texts that suggested dialogues between the government and the
aliens...
L: No. No,
but in that alien section... that I call the alien section 'cause it dealt with
them, is we were always referred to as containers.
Q: So it
definitely was written from an alien point of view...
L: No doubt
about that.
Q: So
aliens referred to us as containers... what were they saying about us as containers?
L: I don't
know. What left the impression... it said nothing about it... but the way I
looked at it was... biological containers... almost like culture dishes... now
that's just the impression I got from reading it though it said nothing like
it... it was almost... containers of genetic material.
Q: Were
they suggesting that they were...
L: No...
there was no suggestion about anything... not that anyone was doing
experiments... nothing like that... and I actually looked for something like
that... but it was so neutral... it was edited to be so neutral that you really
couldn't grasp anything out of it. But it was just the context of which it was
stated.
Q: In my
conversations on this, and I do admit that I have to be careful, because I've
been thinking about it a lot while I've been working on something else... I've
come under the impression, it may have been from other material I've been
reading, that they... that there was some information that the aliens were
suggesting they'd been manipulating through genetics...
L: Well,
that was...
Q: That was
in this book.
L: Yeah,
now some of that was conjecture... because it lead me to believe...
Q: I'm not
saying we're going to present any of this that's not conjecture... what's
interesting about the story is you have some solid things you've seen... and
some things that fucked you up if you guessed in a period when you were heavily
(UNCLEAR)... I'm not going to suggest that you hallucinated these things... but
it's all part of the real canvas of this story that is compelling. The fact
that you read something of that nature...
L: Yeah, of
the nature... but there are lots of "if's" here... cause you have to
step back even... because... are containers actually people... is number one?
Because at no point in there did it say -- containers are humans... okay? So...
immediately you're on unsteady ground...
Q: I can
present all of this portion of information with you in your most anxious state
towards the end of the story... talking to your friend, Gene, saying just what
you're saying to me here...
L: Right.
Q: Gene
would be me saying... And you'll say... but that's conjecture... because you're
a scientist...
L: Right.
Q: And Gene
can say... well, what else can it be? I don't know. That's the way to dramatize
some of these things I find compelling... that I would like to deal with...
L: My point
was... there was nothing that directly related interaction with humans
verbatim... that said that... the interaction was with containers and they
mentioned 65 corrections in the evolutionary process of containers... now...
Q: Where
did this information come from... you're not sure... I still feel that it's
manipulative information in the first place... which is possible... and these
are things that can be dramatized with you being passionate about, just as you
are now, that's not a fact... I don't know what it means... and Gene playing
the role I am of devil's advocate...
L: The only
thing that I've continued absolutely to stand on is the material that I read in
the briefings that was corroborated by the hardware.
Q: Yeah,
but other than that... because this isn't a documentary... the things that were
disturbing to you can be presented dramatically as things that were disturbing
to you. As things that you don't want to stand on, but you did see... that are
ultimately part of the greater conspiracy of some kind... true or untrue...
it's either disinformation from the government itself being given to you on
purpose, it's something that really happened, it's something that was really brought
by aliens, who may or may not be telling the truth... there's a millions
ways... the last thing I'd do is take something like this and say, oh, it must
be true. I'm into the Captain Cook philosophy which is believe nobody with
superior technology...
L: Right,
just because someone actually came from another planet, does not mean they
don't know how to lie. Or have motives to do it.
Q: Exactly.
That's a brand new concept in cinema and to our people. And a concept that I
think is a public service to present in this picture in case they do ever land
on the White House lawn or in case they do decide to drop it out of whatever...
airplane... and pretend they never saw one before. Because there'll be a
certain amount of people that want to go worship anything out there...
L: Right.
Q: And I
think it's a public service to show an intelligent point of view on this which
is, hey, they're spaceships, which means there is somebody, but which also
means that those aren't just people that have the right kind of gas...
technology isn't magic.
L: Right.
Q: That
demystification is literally how we sold this picture to New Line. I expect to
dramatize it and they expect me to do so... it's part of the step forward about
this picture instead of doing a tabloid. So those are details that are great,
compelling details that don't present you as a non-scientist nut case that
believes all this stuff. That's what's great about the character of Lear... is
that I can also dramatize the opposite end of the spectrum and your attitude
towards a person like that... that this is not who you are... it's a great
contrast to your character and it's still fascinating that I could sit here
today or tomorrow and probably not convince you of something I think might be
truly an abduction case... and you've seen these saucers... I think that that's
great... part of the reason I personally knowing you so fascinating. Where
there any other artifacts or anything that bizarre that you came across in
these briefings? You know what I want to do... let's stop now... because we're
all tired and I got what I wanted with this arc... one complete arc with this
story and additions or corrections... character....
END OF TAPE
4 -- SIDE A
SIDE B --
BLANK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S4 - THE
ROBERT LAZAR STORY
TAPE 5 -
SIDE A
Q:
Questions
L: Lazar
Q: Bob, can
we start... this will take us in a little bit of a sequitus route, but can we
talk about Knapp and you're first contact with him and how the television
report went and things like this? Where does he come into the picture?
L:
Actually, at the very end of everything. It was that day that they had set up
the mobile satellite link...
Q: Who
actually made the first contact with him?
L: With
George Knapp?
Q: Yeah?
L: I think
John Lear did.
Q: At your
request?
L: Yeah.
Q: And John
knew him or John knew of him?
L: John had
done other interviews with him before... other television interviews... so they
kind of knew each other. And that's how, essentially, the meeting started.
Q: Were you
talking on the phone to George Knapp at all before you actually did the...
L: No.
Q: No
contact with him at all. So you had never even seen him...
L: No... I
hadn't seen him, in fact the entire interview with backlight... as not to show
my face. And they used a pseudo name... in fact the pseudo name under me was
Dennis. And that was kind of a dig at Dennis... really it just happened like
that... it aired in the middle of the news and...
Q: Six
o'clock news?
L: Five
o'clock.
Q: Five
o'clock news... but, now did you... when was it taped... or was it live?
L: It was
live.
Q: So the
incident when someone shot at you was just before that?
L: Right.
Q: The same
day?
L: I
believe there was a day in delay there.
Q: Okay.
We'll come back and talk about the shooting that was so interesting...
L: If I can
just comment... no, I guess we'll talk about that when we get...
Q: No, comment...
L: Okay, as
far as commenting about the shooting... now, although it's incredibly
coincidental... no one says that it was anyone from S4, any government
official... is it possible that it was a random drive-by shooting that occurs
so much in big cities like this? It's possible. Especially, considering I was
playing with him more or less in the car, maybe he got pissed off and fired out
the window... so... there again, it's one of those things that... I don't know
for absolute sure, but it's a tremendous coincidence that at that time... that
particular hour of that day, when I started on the phone and went down to
Gene's office... I'm going from here to see... to get in contact with George
Knapp... so on and so forth... that that occurred... so there's no specific...
Q: Take me
through that conversation with Gene where you stated on the phone what time you
were going to be there. So that I can reconstruct it accurately...
L: From
what I remember... I think Gene was suggesting that I go ahead and do it,
because he knew that John Lear knew George Knapp. So, I think I finally agreed
and decided to drive to John's place... to talk to John.
Q: Did John
know you were coming?
L: Yeah.
Q: You
called him?
L:
Umm-hmm... actually through this entire scenario, John only pops up two or
three times. He's really not a main player in there... I don't know if I've got
it across that way...
Q: Yeah,
you did express that. But you called him up and said you were coming to... did
you say why you were going?
L: I think
Gene had spoken to him directly and might have filled him in.
Q: So you
said something like... I'd like to see you...
L: Yeah...
and something to the effect that, I understand that you know George Knapp or
can get hold of him... maybe it would be possible to talk to him today.
Q: When you
made that call, did you use your phone? Or a phone outside...?
L: I really
don't remember. I think I called from Gene's office, but I can't remember.
Q: So you
left Gene's office to talk to John Lear...
L: Right.
Q: And
that's when it happened... it happened on which...
L:
Charleston Boulevard on ramp.
Q: Did you
file a police report?
L: No.
Q: Was
there a bullet in your car?
L: Yeah.
And in the tire. We looked for the one in the tire, we couldn't find... but
there was entry by the rim. I thought the tire had caught it, but then I did
drive all the way home, so it probably ejected itself...
Q: Did you
think about making a police report?
L: Yeah I
really did. In fact, I have people periodically drop film off here... some of
the other real estate appraisers... there are little boxes outside... and I was
in the driveway and one of them, Nancy Clark, who just works up the street
here, had come by right after it had happened... now she knew nothing about all
this other stuff... but I had commented on it, you know, how come the police
aren't here... so on and so forth... and I don't know why I didn't... I
probably should have... but I guess the reason I didn't was because eventually,
after talking to the cops, no matter what, you're going to have to tell them
entire story to connect everything together and it was just an unbelievable and
impossible task at the time. And it just wouldn't have made sense... because
eventually the questioning was going to get down to, well who would want to
shoot you and this and that... well, the government's after me... oh, really...
it just would not have been possible.
Q: What
happened that night?
L: I didn't
stay home that night.
Q: You were
alone...
L: Yeah.
Q: Where
did you go?
L: I think
at that time I stayed at the hotel up off the strip... the Budget Inn.
Q: What did
you feel like that night... do you remember?
L: I can't
remember specifically. There were too many things that were going through my
mind.
Q: Did you
think about packing it in... leaving town? Getting out of here?
L: No, that
never really occurred. There were too many thoughts going through my mind...
because all that... everything else had happened just before that and I don't
know... there were just too many thoughts going through my mind... there was
nothing specific to lock onto... believe it or not, I mean, the shooting was
not a real high priority... it was just in the stack.
Q: Were you
afraid you were going to die?
L: No... I
was just at a level of saturation where nothing really mattered at that point.
I mean at that time I was probably thinking more along the lines of my wife and
what was going on at that point than anything else.
Q: Your
wife wasn't in the house?
L: No.
Q: Had she
moved out or was she just out that night?
L: She was
just out.
Q: What did
she say when you told her about this?
L: I really
don't remember.
Q: But you
did tell her?
L: I really
don't remember... it's kind of a blur.
Q: Listen, I
understand... I
understand exactly... some of these things... simply because everything you can
tell me is important for me to know so that I can reconstruct this perfectly.
If I ask you something which makes you uncomfortable... don't tell me. Or, if
you can't remember, we'll fit the pieces together as best we can. So, I'm going
to ask you all kinds of things that most people wouldn't remember...
L: Well,
I'll certainly make that distinction... so far there's already been quite a few
things I can't remember.
Q: The next
day, you woke up in the Budget Hotel... uneventful night?
L:
Uneventful night.
Q: Who did
you call from the Budget Hotel?
L: No
one... just came home and went and did my normal rounds of work.
Q: Did you
talk with John Lear that night or with Gene?
L: Oh,
probably with Gene. I spoke to Gene all the time. Gene I spoke to several times
a day, every day.
Q: Did he
tell you to go to the police, or anything like that?
L: No.
Q: He
probably told you to get out of the house.
L: Yeah.
Q: You've
got the contact now with John Lear where you're going to set up the meeting
with George Knapp...
L: That
actually occurred in John Lear's driveway...
Q: You
drove over there?
L: Yeah.
Q: Alone or
with Gene... do you remember?
L: I drove
there with Gene, yeah.
Q: Okay.
(GLITCH IN
TAPE -- MACHINE TURNED OFF AND ON?)
L: And the
truck pulled up...
Q: So John
already knew...
L: Yeah,
John was updated on what had happened when I got there.
Q: Bob, I'm
missing one little step here. You were going to see John Lear... let's follow
the night of the shooting night... you were going to see him to talk about
doing a story with George Knapp...
L: Right.
That's when he was updated on everything.
Q: But you didn't
see him that night?
L: George Knapp?
Q: John
Lear... the night of the shooting...
L: No, John
Lear I saw... George Knapp I did not...
Q: So after
the shooting you saw John Lear?
L: Yeah.
Q: Good.
L: I tried
to get hold of George and could not... so...
Q: So the
next day you went over.
L: Right...
and he had stuff set up.
Q: At John
Lear's house?
L: Right.
Q: How did
you feel about talking to a TV guy that you didn't know?
L: Well,
I'd never done it before... I saw kind of nervous and I didn't... I really
didn't know if it was the right decision, so it was kind of a compromise... and
they said, well, we'll film it in silhouette and we won't use your name... as
if... they didn't change my voice or anything... so it was a very obvious...
Q: Were you
afraid you might go to jail?
L: Ahh...
that had crossed my mind, but it didn't weigh heavily on my mind because... as
you know with the clearance, there's that 10/10 provision in there... ten years
of jail... ten thousand dollar fine for divulging secret information, but they
really couldn't... I mean, what could they say... in order for them to
prosecute me on that, it would have to be... they would have to admit that all
this... and that was absolutely out of the question, so I felt relatively safe
as far as that was concerned... but... jail was not a real worry, it was more a
worry of... I was more worried about not doing anything... and, I don't know if
you've ever been in that mode where... well, here's a good analogy... maybe
it's a poor analogy... you know if you're in traffic and you're not going
anywhere... you can get extremely frustrated... though you may be going just a
short distance on a straight road, and if it's not moving, you can take a whole
bunch of side streets that will take exactly the same amount of time, but
you're moving... it doesn't matter... at least something's happening to occupy
your brain and you'd get there at the same time and that's... so, maybe it's a
poor analogy... it's exactly what I felt... I may not be doing the right thing,
but something is happening... I'm not sitting at home waiting for something to
act on me... I'm acting and all I felt was, maybe it was a need for control
cause there was so much happening behind the scenes that I wasn't aware of, I
wanted to initiate something... so I felt compelled to do something.
Q: When you
went to talk with George Knapp was part of that due to the fact that you were
afraid for your own safety?
L: Oh,
yeah. Sure.
Q: How did
George Knapp handle this?
L: Well,
George Knapp was on the air in the middle of the news and he just, essentially,
cut in and said this is... we have someone from the test site... blah, blah...
says the government is hiding certain things and that his life may be in
jeopardy, or something like that. So he just cut in and out and, as far as how
did he handle it... later on in the broadcast, him and the other anchor person
were talking and George was very interested and he kept bringing it up...
bringing it up throughout the newcast... but George Knapp had no idea who I
was... so...
Q: And he
did that based on the conversation he had with John Lear...
L: Right.
You've got to ask Gene about that, I guess. Because I don't know if Gene or
John spoke to George Knapp and who really updated him on everything, I really
don't know.
Q: What
happened then... how long was it on the air? Sixty seconds... a couple
minutes... do you remember?
L: Ahhh...
I do have the tape somewhere...
Q: I've
seen a copy of it...
L: It's...
they ask a few questions... I'd say a couple minutes... maybe four minutes or
so?
Q: How did
you feel when it was over?
L:
Relieved...
Q: You were
at John Lear's house and the remote drove away and you went on home?
L: Yeah,
that was it.
Q: Then
what happened?
L: Then was
the call from Dennis... it was as soon as I got home... and he said the only
thing that he said was... do you have any idea what we're going to do to you
now? And I said, no. And that was the end of the conversation.
Q: (UNCLEAR
-- too soft to make out)
L: Yeah,
after that, yeah.
Q: (UNCLEAR
-- again, too soft)
L: That was
sometime afterwards... and he wanted to meet at the Union Plaza Hotel.
Q: How many
weeks or months, roughly, after that?
L: I can't
even remember... that's a calendar question.
Q: But
things had been pretty quiet... when he called up that time, or was there a
reason that he may have called up? You said yesterday that things quieted down?
L: Yeah,
things quieted down after that... and some time had gone by... maybe a month
and he called and I had the impression that he wanted... it was just a one on
one thing... he wanted to talk about something... obviously about the situation
or something... but disconnected from everyone else. And that meeting went sour
and that was the last I ever heard of him.
Q: What
kind of contact did you have with George Knapp after that first remote
interview?
L: After
that, some time after that, I don't remember how long, George wanted to meet me
and I finally agreed and he came down with himself and the head of the
network... or TV station and we talked about it... and he wanted to do a more
indepth report of what was going on out there, 'cause from what I understand he
had been working on some story or investigating strange things out there... and
that's when I met him and talked to him for a little while and shortly after
that he had been compiling all this data to do an expose on TV.
Q: Did he
ever show it on TV? Was it on TV?
L: Yes.
Q: So what
happened to him at the station where he worked? Did he leave or was he... I
know that he's not there anymore... do you know anything about it?
L: No...
his thing was kind of a big hit... he did it over a week period and he got a
lot of responses and that's where he got a lot of the contacts 'cause he kind
of made a plea to people... anyone else that has any information about this,
contact him... and that's where he got some people who would only talk to him
off the record... so on and so forth...
Q: Did he
ever share any of that with you?
L: Yeah.
Q: What did
you think of it... what did you think of what you saw?
L: Oh, a
lot of it was interesting, but...
Q: Did it
have anything to do with S4?
L: Yeah...
some people did.
Q: So he
actually knows some people that... or he spoke with people who...
L: He's
spoken with people that have been... most have worked at Area 51 and knew of
the existence of the place... and knew of alien craft there... people who had
shuttled people back and forth... mostly retired people... purposely not...
speaking off the record, essentially, to protect their pensions and what not...
he also later met some other people... Senate investigators, and things like
that, who also were very suspicious about what was going on down there and back
budget investigators... a guy named DiAmatto, for one, who later became assets
in tracking stuff down... actually, because that interview kind of got all over
the place... attracted the attention of a lot of people that... investigative
committees headed by... what's his name, yeah, John Glenn became interested...
I mean, it attracted a lot of people that were kind of in to that more or less.
Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man on the moon, came down and spoke to me at length
and said, I guess the astronauts have their own little clique... group... apart
from NASA, and again they said, off the record, we kind of know something's
going on, but...
Q: Mitchell
said that?
L: Yes. And
he came down here with his wife and was interested in all of the particulars...
because they were just collecting information about what was going on behind
closed doors. And he had lots of good contacts... in addition to people that
managed to contact me directly, but most people didn't know how... so they came
through George.
Q: In this
time period, after you'd talked to George Knapp for the first time, and after
that story went out... can you tell me a little bit about the contacts that you
may have been exposed to... people phoning you up... were there any strange
phone calls... were there people trying to meet you?
L: Oh,
yeah.
Q: Were any
of those things particularly memorable because they struck you as being odd or
burdensome or something that you didn't. want to talk... how did you feel about
all that?
L: Well,
unfortunately, a good portion of them were kooks, or at least that's what I
labelled them as...
Q: What'd
they say....?
L: Oh, some
were absolutely insane... they called themselves... The Mercury Workers... the
nuclear test site is in Mercury, Nevada, and they said, well they think a bunch
of their co-workers are being held down at S4 and would I get together with
this group and plan a break-out and... I mean, these guys were kooks... I mean,
ridiculous things... a couple silly things like that stuck out... most of it
was other news agencies... or Oprah and Geraldo and CNN... I mean everyone in
the entire world lit up...
Q: Did you
see any of those people?
L: No, I
turned down interviews with everybody... and it went over the UPI and...
Q: Now...
help me understand your motivation... even though I personally applaud that...
they were probably willing to pay you good money...
L: Yeah,
they were. But that was not my intention to do the interview... to do an
interview to... it's hard to describe... that is not... it's not the way I
wanted it presented and I was doing it actually for more of a selfish reason...
I know it's unfair not to release all of the information to the scientific
community and so on and so forth, but really the main reason was I was afraid
for what was happening to me... and I felt that the best way was if this is in
the public eye, if... certainly if anything suddenly happened to me, the light
is now cast on the test site and what's going on... how come this guy just went
on TV and said there's all this strange stuff happening and he disappears or
he's being harrassed or something... that was the main reason for doing it...
and with that being taken care of... there was no reason to go completely
national and Hollywood and, if anything, that was going to discredit the
message I was trying to get across, because... well, you know what happens when
you go on those shows and what they do to stories... they turn them around and
sensationalize everything and that would... that was just not my intention.
Q: I read
something about you going to a... was it a UFO conference here in Las Vegas?
Tell me about that. How did you feel about that?
L: Well, I
guess it was curiosity... I wanted to see what... well, which UFO conference?
Q: Tell me
about as many as you can remember...
L: Well,
one was pretty dated... all this other... this was shortly after I had started
telling Gene, before the shit hit the fan, more or less... and became
interested in what all these people knew. And we went to a UFO conference here
in town and it was, essentially, what I thought it would be like.
Q: In one
of the hotels?
L: Yeah, I
mean, crazy people.
Q: Were
they wearing costumes and stuff?
L: Some
lady said she was from Venus and she typically comes down here and... because
she wants her kids to be educated here and, I mean, it was truly ridiculous...
Q: What
else sticks in your mind? People are wierd and that's great... if I can just
take a snapshot and write about them... because I can't think of this stuff...
L: Well,
these people were absolutely dead serious and they'd have speaker after
speaker... one guy, Bill Cooper, was talking about how there were bases on the
moon and Mars... we'd been there since the '50's... shuttling back and forth...
these big mining operations going on...
Q: Now this
is after you've seen the spacecraft...
L: Right.
So this was particularly entertaining for me.
Q: And you're
now... does Gene know that you've seen this spacecraft?
L: Yeah.
(PHONE
RINGS -- MACHINE TURNED OFF AND ON)
Q: So this
is in one of the hotels... you're walking through there with Gene... has Gene
seen... have you gone out to the desert with Gene yet?
L: Yeah...
yeah. Gene has seen some of the test flights... heard really all I had to
say...
Q: Now,
this is the first UFO conference...
L: Yeah.
Q: Did you
talk with anyone there? Did you look for anyone?
L: No, I
just looked around and... kind of with a superior attitude... really knowing
what was going on and just glancing at the material... they were selling books
and all kinds of things...
Q: This was
all stuff that you had been exposed to... and just didn't want to have anything
to do with the stuff anyway.
L: Right.
Q: Was
there anything there... at this first UFO conference that struck you as close
to the mark?
L: Ahh...
one was... well, one was... the drawings they had of the aliens themselves...
which was the only thing that ever made me think, well maybe someone really was
abducted at one time... because were would they have come up with an accurate
representation?
Q: They
corresponded to the pictures in the autopsy report?
L: Yes...
reasonably well. As far as all these other scenarios and stories that were made
up... everything was beyond ridiculous... they were showing tapes of the
Kennedy assassination and the person commenting on it, he said... his whole
point was the driver shot Kennedy... and the driver turns around and you can
see that... and the driver does turn around, but they're saying... look at the
gun in his hand, he's shooting him and it was because Kennedy was going to
reveal the UFO secret as soon as he left Dallas... and it was really funny...
it was a really entertaining day... and the lady from Venus... who I just had
to talk to... and it was just a taunt... essentially... I said, well, how did
you get back from Venus... oh, my spacecraft was parked over here... I said,
did you wear these clothes... oh, yeah... this is how we dress... you know,
it's 800 degrees on Venus and it's a sulphuric acid atmosphere... well, this is
special acid-resistant and it's high temperature material... I said, can I
light some of it... no, no, it's not resistant to earth flames... so, anything
you could come up with, they made it sillier... but she was dead serious and I
actually think she's believes it, so it was kind of entertaining... oh, the
other thing was, the Billy Meier stuff... supposedly there was a Swedish farmer
in the '70's, who had made contact with spacecraft or aliens or something like
that and had taken some really good pictures and one of the pictures they had
was... looked exactly like the Sport Model that I had worked on... which was
amazing to me...
Q: What did
you think when you saw that?
L: I
thought, number one, that he didn't meet any aliens... I thought what was going
on was this disc, at that time, was still being tinkered with... and what he
was seeing was some of our guys on a test flight somewhere...
Q: But in
Sweden?
L: Yeah,
he's Swedish.
Q: What did
Gene say when...
Q: Gene had
seen one... he'd just seen the lights...
L: Right...
of course, he didn't see it in the detail I did, a glowing disc that shape,
but... I said, that is it... actually, it was slightly different, but I said,
that is absolutely the craft and most of the UFO people... like I said before,
they all have their own little scenarios and stories and they all hate each
other and try to discredit each other and make up stories about one another and
a lot of them hated the Billy Meier's story, I guess, because after he had
these photographs out and supposedly they'd been analyzed and they weren't
fake, about a year later some government officials came into his barn and broke
in and, all of a sudden, found models of the craft and they said, oh, well, he
made everything up... and, of course, Billy Meier contends they brought the
models and put them there... there was nothing there... I wouldn't have just
left them out on the floor, even if I was faking it... so it was a very
controversial story, but to me, that was the only thing that rang true,
ironically, the one that everyone believes in the least had a essentially the
same craft that I was working on... at least the same design...
Q: There
was no one there though that... you didn't say, look, I have seen something...
L: Oh, no,
I would never have said anything to those people.
Q: Time has
gone by now, and you actually went back to one where people knew of you, or
knew you, or...
L: Well,
this is years and years and years later... this was recently...
Q: Tell me
about that one.
L: Well,
what had happened was... the place that I used to watch from, where we got
caught, had kind of become famous... because after I had mentioned in a later
interview exactly where it was... there's a very small town next to it called
Rachel, Nevada that probably has like a hundred people living there...
Q: What's
the name of the town again?
L: Rachel.
Q: Okay.
L: And
there was a little building called the Rachel Bar and Grill, which is like a
little double-wide trailer...
Q: Yeah,
I've read about that...
L: After
that, it became... they have bus tours that go out there now... from
California... people fly in and drive up to this place and they've built a
giant restaurant now to like a hotel and they call it the Ale-Inn... all
essentially because of that... so I became friends with the people there
because they attributed all their new success and what not... unfortunately, it
was also the only place someone could stay over night and watch from that area,
so what had happened recently was... the power company for some reason, and I
don't understand how they can do that, it's some sort of co-op deal because
it's out in the middle of nowhere... they just increased the power rates up
there... essentially, to make the town of Rachel go away... five fold what they
originally were... and, from what I understand, they're going to fight a legal
battle against them... and the little town and the Rachel Bar and Grill, which
was the main thing in the town, couldn't afford to do it, so they were putting
on a UFO conference more or less, to get people to come in and they were going
to charge thirty or forty dollars a person to show up and hear various speakers
speak so they could raise money to save their town...
Q: And this
was in 1992... '91...
L: '93...
maybe '92... nah, it was '93... I had not planned on speaking. George Knapp was
going to... Gene was going to... because Gene actually relays my story better
than I do, because, unlike me, he has a memory... but they did write on the
poster, the little flyer that they sent around, that Bob Lazar will be in
attendance... and that caused... it was a circus... I really couldn't believe
it... there were droves of people deep...
Q: This is
outside... during the day...
L: Yeah,
when I drove up...
Q: RV's...
L: Yeah,
they just swarmed me... it was unbelievable...
Q: What was
that like?
L: It was a
terrible feeling... I really knew what some famous people must feel like now...
it was... I had a friend that had come up to see me and he was no more than
twenty feet away and it honestly took me about four hours to get to him.
Q: Did you
give any interviews up there?
L: Well, I
had never intended to, but that day Gene's father died, so he couldn't come.
George Knapp decided to go fly to Kansas... I had originally come up there just
to watch and hang out and then leave... just to kind of put my two cents in
there by showing up to help them out... not for any money or anything... so I
got up there not knowing anything about this... and all the speakers had
cancelled and I was left there and I'm listening to some of these people...
well, we drove from South Carolina just to ask you a question or talk to you...
and I felt so absolutely obligated to stay there and talk, so I just answered
questions on a podium for about an hour and a half and left.
Q: How many
people were there? Couple a hundred?
L: Yeah,
I'd say a few hundred... maybe two or three hundred... but it was never my
intention to do that and I left.
Q: Did you
feel uneasy doing that? I mean uneasy from a personal security...
L: Oh,
yeah... I had no idea who was there... there were way too many people. It just
surprised me. I didn't think there would be that kind of a turnout or that kind
of interest... or anything like that... so I was really anxious to leave.
Q: And you
told them essentially...
L: No, I
was so sick of telling my story, which I'd repeated so many times... I just
said, I'll just answer some questions.
Q: Any
interesting questions that stick in your mind?
L: Only the
stupid questions stick in my mind.
Q: Tell me
some of the stupid ones... do you remember any?
L: What
kind of gas do the flying saucers use?
Q: What did
you say?
L: Gas...
as in gasoline... and he said, yeah. And to me it was a scream. And I said I
think I came back with a snappy remark at first and then told him, well, they
don't operate like that... and he didn't understand me... I guess he was just
some miner or farmer or something along those lines and just couldn't compute
what I was talking about. And I said it's that new Arco EC1 -- that unleaded
gasoline... and everyone kind of got a laugh at that and then I talked to him
directly and said, well, they don't use gas like that... it uses like a
reactor... like a nuclear reactor and tried to explain it simply to him, but I
don't think he really grasped what was going on.
Q: Any
other stupid questions? This is all great stuff by the way.
L: There
were some good ones... specifically everyone always asks the same question...
how the disc travels in a Delta confirguration... they always want me to
re-explain that... I don't know why... how space is bent and things like
that... and questions like why doesn't it show up on radar.
(MACHINE
BEING ADJUSTED)
Q: That was
in '93... has anything happened since then that you would consider significant
that we should know about?
L: From the
end of all the events up there to today?
Q: Umm hmm.
L: I'd say
the only significant thing would have been the brothel thing...
Q: The
brothel hearing?
L: Yeah.
Q: When was
that?
L: Oh,
boy... '92... probably '91... then again... that's a calendar thing. But the
reason that was significant was for various reasons.
Q: What was
that all about?
L: After
leaving... and it still has me very suspicious... after leaving the project or
not being into it any more... I went back to doing my photo business, other
little things that have always worked for me and they were going good and I ran
into a girl that had claimed she worked at the legal brothel that I had owned
years ago and what I had done there was something unusual is that I
computerized everything and it made everything run relatively smooth. What
specifically... sounds ridiculous... so the girls can pretend that they know
the guys, they can set up a data base and they can come in and say how's your
wife, Jean, and things like that... anyway, as far as accounting and other
things along those lines... and this person said they had been operating a
place in town here illegally for quite some time and could I set up the same system
that we had there along with some security stuff. I said, sure, that's no
sweat. So for about seventy-five hundred dollars I set up and installed the
computers and wrote the software for it and put up cameras down their staircase
so they could see who was coming up to the door and, essentially, did that. But
most of the time was spent, a couple months, just writing the software and
getting into it. Now, as it turned out, and I still don't know how this chain
of events happened... but, she was listed with the FBI as being an informant
for the DEA for the FBI and for Metro Police. Now why was she allowed to
operate and do this and where is she coming out of the clear blue sky to ask
me... and I never remembered her... that's just something she claims... anyway,
after I was done that was it and I left and some... about... and I kind of left
abruptly cause I finished earlier than I thought I would... and I said, okay,
it's done... I'll see you later... and, oh, what had happened was, this was
after George had aired his expose and everything. Then someone had told us that
they had hired a private investigator that was following me around at that
time.
Q: Who had
hired?
L: The
rival network... channel 13... they had hired a private investigator that was
following me around and was going to air, because they had... I guess channel 8
aired this thing during Sweeps Week, which is where they get their ratings
evalutated, and obliterated all of the TV stations and they really disliked
it... because they, too, had asked me for interviews, but I turned it down,
just like everyone else. I said, what I know has been aired and there's no
reason to go on with it. So there was kind of some hard feelings there. They
found this stuff out... that I was doing this work on the side for them and
were planning on airing a little thing, well, this UFO informant here... this
is what he does in his spare time. So George decided to... he contacted me and
said, what we need to do is go on the air and say it first before these people
do... because it's just something stupid you've been involved in, but it's just
better to say it yourself. And I said, well, that makes sense. If there're
going to do it... and plus, it's another smack in the face to them. So we went
ahead and did a little thing and just kind of rolled over it... like, so what
have you been up to since all this stuff had happened... and I had dah-dah-dah
and I've done this for a place in town among other things... and that night I
guess the police were put in kind of a wierd position... so they busted the
place and shortly after that they wanted to charge me with pandering... which
is... essentially, pimping... so after I sat down with the police, it was just
an unprecedented push to dump everything on me... this thing had records and
stuff that they seized from years back and they wanted to say that I had come
up with this and built the whole business up and created everything and it made
no sense... they were actually pushing everything on me when they knew fine and
well that this woman had this running for a long time and it doesn't matter,
they said, you aided and abetted in this crime by setting up this equipment and
they really triumphed it up to much more than it was and they said, well, you
either admit to that or we're going to file all these charges and many more
felony counts and so I was really... there was really nothing I could do... and
I really was not in a mood to fight however long that was going to take and
however expensive that was going to be. So I admitted to being involved and had
to plead guilty to that charge and it was more or less of a plea bargain thing
and they said, well, you know, you're going to have to perform community
service was the only thing... ironically... well, I'll get back to that in a minute.
But in all the hearings, who was in the back of the room but Thigpen... this is
the guy who originally came to investigate me... who... now what...
Q: Now
wasn't he living in Washington at the time?
L: Yeah...
now what is he doing at these hearings and only the last time did I realize
what was going on... has he been here... yeah... that was the guy I was telling
you about... because, again, at the time there were so many things going
through my mind... that's that wierd guy that was sent here everytime... that's
Thigpen and what on earth is he doing here and now maybe this explains the
great push to get... and maybe in there eyes it was perfect... it was on a
silver platter... here's the guy that was screwing up everything for them,
essentially, and now I gave it to him on a silver platter, something to
discredit myself and it did work out that way perfectly. So maybe that's why
everything truly came to an end. Ironically... the community service I had to
perform was setting up the exact same data base for Clark County... for their
Discovery Museum in town.
Q: That's
great.
L: I guess
it's okay to do it for them, but not for them.
Q: Now, did
you say... when you saw Thigpen there... did you say anything to him?
L: No, that
was impossible. It was a fairly quiet place. He's standing in the back and I
couldn't, you know...
Q: If he
were...
L: I
acknowledged his existence there and he acknowledge me and that was it...
Q: That's
interesting.
L: But
every time I was done... 'cause you sit up front with your lawyer and you
really can't get up and leave... much less go talk with someone, but every time
we were done and I went to leave, he was always gone. So, it was extremely
suspicious.
Q: Well, he
was probably there because people wanted to know the proceedings of the court
without actually asking for or attempting to acquire a transcript. So no
contact ever again with Thigpen? No contact with any of those people. You
performed your community service...
L: Right...
that was over and done with and...
Q: And it's
all over...
L: Right.
Q: Any
strange phone calls?
L: No, it
pretty much all... I'm wondering if I'm leaving out something, but... I don't
think there was... that was the last UFO related event that had anything to do
with those people and it all... that was really the end of everything. Nothing
ever came of it after that.
Q: I was
going to say, would you surmise that Thigpen knew about the spacecraft... Or
was he simply performing a...
L: I don't
know.
Q: That's a
hard one.
L: I don't
know. Originally, I wouldn't think that the people that originally came to my
house knew what was going on... I don't know if Thigpen was a special person,
but certainly by that time he had heard all of the stories and whatnot and I
don't know.
Q: When was
the last time you saw Barry? We're just about out...
L: That
little light blinks...
(MACHINE
ADJUSTMENT)
Q: I'm
going to change the batteries when we're done with...
L: The last
time I saw Barry was the last time I was out at S4, before I went to Indian
Springs and all that... I never saw him out. The only person I ever saw out of
the base was Dennis.
Q: Was
there anybody involved with EG&G or S4 that you knew or had words with
besides Dennis and Barry.
L: Other
than that guy Rene I had met.
Q: Tell me
about Rene again.
L: I only
spoke to him once... he was working on Project Galileo, but on some other
aspect of it and was working in a lab near us and I was just introduced once
and we talked for awhile... small talk nothing...
Q: Did you
get the impression that he stayed out there or went back and forth?
L: I got
the impression that he stayed out there, but I had no prove that anyone stayed
out there... I never saw any sleeping quarters... though I knew there were
extensive ones up at Area 51... so I don't know.
Q: When you
flew back or up there, the people you flew up there with were all going to some
other...
L: Mostly
into Area 51 up there...
Q: Did you
ever see any of those people again or have any contact with any of those people
again?
L: That
were on the plane with me?
Q: Umm hmm.
L: I don't
think I ever had contact with them long enough to even recognize them if I did
see them again.
Q: What
about any of the people... I just don't want to leave anybody out. What about
any of the people that you worked with at Los Alamos? Did you ever have contact
with... do you still have contact with...
L: Oh,
yeah... hmm hmm.
Q: Now how
do they relate to what's happened to you. Let me see if I can change the
question a little bit. Is your friendship with them still what it was when you
worked at Los Alamos or because of this series of incidents has the friendship
been changed?
L: It was
probably strengthened. I would say.
Q: Now are
some of these people the same group...
L: I was
thinking of one in particular... Joe... that I worked with closely, who was a
good friend at Los Alamos and had helped out a lot and even moved out here and
started working up at the nuclear test site... we've always been close and he's
always been really supportive of everything.
Q: Did you
work in the same area at Los Alamos with Joe?
L: Yeah.
Q: Can you
recall... see there's a purpose for all of this... and that is... going in this
picture that you have relationships... normal relationships with all kinds of
different people and you're telling them about what's going on... it makes your
story... even though it's credible... it makes it yet more credible... we're
making it undeniable...
L: It was
difficult... initially Joe was still at Los Alamos and I had to do mail
communication with him and countless times that Joe sent me stuff it never got
here. And that's when I started sending things to Joe and I still have the
little plastic bags that I saved from them... it says, received at the Post
Office opened... I mean, I have several of those... from back then... it seemed
like someone had gone through everything of mine.
Q: When the
Post Office began to give you the plastic bags with material open, that was
after you left S4? That was after you were not called back?
L: Yeah.
Then I began sending things through Gene's office... that's the only way I
communicated via mail.
Q: Did you
talk to him on the phone at all?
L: Joe?
Q: Yeah.
L: Yeah. In
a... even before I had actually left S4 I spoke to him a little and really
couldn't say much on the phone. All we'd say was, hey, well, next time you come
out, I've got a lot to tell you... and how's work going... he knew full well
what was going on from my letters and then eventually he moved out here and
started working up at the nuclear test site and he'd smuggle maps out of there
of exactly how it's laid out so we could find the back roads... he could take
and get a good vantage point from the opposite side... 'cause he'd be on the
opposite side of S4 and he purposely said up there at nights and rented a room
they have up at the test site... you know, government sponsored, right on the
site, so he could go out at night and try and see things from the other side.
And he did see (UNCLEAR) test flights, but unfortunately he was a little far
away and could see nothing other than lights flashing around in the sky.
Q: What
happened to him when you started to get into trouble?
L: Nothing.
Coincidentally, right around that time, Joe moved. And disappeared. He decided
to go back to school for some reason... just kind of tried of working for the
government... probably partially out of frustration seeing all the stuff that
was happening to me and just he had been in his job for a long time... so
nothing really happened to him.
Q: Left the
area?
L: Yeah.
Moved up to Utah.
Q: Did you
continue to communicate with him?
L: Ah...
not very much... now once or twice a month. However, Jim, another friend, who
was working up at another test site, where they were working on the Stealth
plane up in Tonapa (sp?), now he was contacted instantaneously. Right before
George Knapp's thing went on the air.
Q: Tell me
about that.
L: Umm...
Jim was there the first night where we saw the disc jump around and in fact
it's his voice on the video tape... and someone at work... because there was a
lot of talk about that... up in the area he was working in... and someone had
recognized his voice and reported it to his superior. Now Jim was in the
process of getting his Q clearance... so he had been there... for, I don't
know, for how many months... I'd say about ten months... which is about how
long it takes... ten... twelve months... once you start passing there... then
it's am I getting my clearance or not... so, the George Knapp thing was going
to air the next day and they came... Jim, being a civilian, he's working up
there on the fire control systems... fire alarms... and they came and pulled
him out of work... the UFI... and sat him down and interrogated him. And I
hadn't really updated Jim on everything... I just gave him a kind of brief
overview of what I was working on and he saw the disc tested and Jim is kind of
a crazy guy... he's happy-go-lucky type of guy that will just do anything and
kind of responds to authority like I do. And they essentially sat him down and
said... hey, tell us about your friend Lazar, what's going on. Now do you
believe all this ridiculous stuff he's been telling you... well, you'd better
not and so on and so forth... and all that did was completely cement it in
Jim's mind that what was going on was exactly what I was saying and I think they
told him... I don't remember, you'll probably have to ask Jim, but I think they
told him not to contact me anymore or something along those lines. And Jim
called me from a secure phone intentionally right after the meeting and said,
hey, these guys... I mean purposely... these guys just interrogated me and said
blah-blah-blah... the whole nine yards and I didn't tell him I knew where you
were and I know right where you're at... and all that stuff... and then Jim and
I had a long talk that night and...
Q: And this
was before Knapp aired his...
L: His long
expose... yeah... the day before. And they... I really don't know... yeah, I'm
sure it was the day before...
Q: And Jim
lives up in Utah now.
L: No,
that's Joe. Jim still lives here.
Q: Okay,
sorry. Anybody else? Am I forgetting anybody here?
L: Jim, Joe,
Gene...
END OF TAPE
5 -- SIDE A
TAPE 5 --
SIDE B
Q: ...
shoot the fireworks off in the desert at night...
L: That's
the only thing that takes precedence over everything...
Q: When do
you do that?
L: We used
to do it the weekend before the 4th of July, until Omni printed that in its
article. But that is something that Jim and I started years ago... when I was
twelve, when I lived in New York, they put on these big fireworks displays in
the park and they let you come in and help set things up... not actually making
of the fireworks, but tying the knots and setting up the framework for the
ground displays and I really got a kick out of that... already being
scientifically inclined... I was really fascinated with how the fireworks
worked and subsequent to that I learned more about it and it was more or less
of an art and all the formulas and techniques are passed down from family to
family...
Q: Until
the family blows itself up.
L: Or dies
out. And some of them are very complex techniques and formulas that really have
been lost and never duplicated and are recorded... it's kind of a wierd branch
of chemistry... pyrotechnics, in itself.
Q: It's an
Italian family in New York, isn't it?
L: The
Grucci's (sp?)... the guy that I know died, Jimmy Grucci (sp?)... yeah, most of
the Italians are the best at it. But, as time went on, I learned more about it
and then the years went by, I moved around, continued kind of experimenting
with stuff and learning the techniques and then joined the Pyrotechnics Guild
and began to develop... everyone has their own signature colors and stuff...
and some of them being very, very difficult to do and I came up with a color...
double neon blue... is what I called it... and, essentially, began just doing
things on my own, just for fun, because it's technically illegal to manufacture
fireworks... it's kind of a gray area of the law... and so to avoid any
possible legal implications and whatnot, we would go out and have a barbecue on
this drylake bed... the weekend before the 4th of July, before the cops are out
looking for fireworks, and later we found out that the drylake bed is on Indian
land so we're safe from everything... technically not being part of the United
States... however those laws work... so I began to be very knowledgeable on it
and actually helped out in other firework displays and so just finally I taught
a couple of friends how to start making some of the larger fireworks... and it
began to escalate and we had a group of people... and then more friends... and
people got into it and then finally it turned into a big fireworks show and we
began putting it on every year... not really a show... but where everyone makes
their own fireworks and, instead of just sitting there watching the fireworks
go off, people would be like, hey, this one's mine going up and it added a lot
more interest and fun to it. And then as more time went on, we started putting
money into it and now we spend, on that one day, thousands of dollars...
Q: Who are
the guys that do this with you?
L: Really,
I do 90 percent of it... and I'd say just the close friends, immediate close
friends and family... Jim and his girlfriend...
Q: Jim's
last name is...
L:
Tageilini... Gene... his wife... and a couple of friends... actually, we've
kind of split up all the jobs that have to be done... a lot of it folding
paperwork... a lot of it... the biggest time consuming part is taking these
woks that you normally cook food in and we put little shotgun... smaller than
bb's... shots in there and I take the various chemical compositions and make
them into a powder and spray them with water and roll them around until they
snowball and get bigger and you add different colors on top... so when the
shells blow up you get different colors and different effects... and we spend
about two or three months beforehand making all these things... and testing out
different things and then the day comes... we come up with different, crazy
things to do... last year... Jim's kind of a stuntman that never got to be a
stuntman... he'd love to do crazy things... and last year I made him a
jetpack... I made a little jet engine that he could wear on his back so he
could stand on rollerskates and go across the drylake bed...
Q: Did he?
L: Yeah, he
did.
Q: How fast
did he go?
L: Ahh...
he was moving at a pretty good clip... I don't know...
Q: Guess...
thirty, forty...
L:
Forty-five... fifty... he was moving pretty good. Just crazy things... A big
barbecue and everyone just gets around and drinks and...
Q: Jon was
telling us something about a balloon or a camera and a balloon?
L: Oh,
that's one of this year's things that we're doing is we've got a bunch of...
each year we make a tape of everything that happens...
Q: Do you
have any of those tapes?
L: Oh, yeah,
sure...
Q: Can I at
some point trouble you to see them? Because this is something that's got to be
in the picture...
L: ... that
particular Desert Blast was an interesting one.
Q: That's
what it's called a Desert Blast?
L: Yeah, in
that it was right after everything that had happened... and everyone was so
afraid... that here are all of Bob's friends in one place at one time... that
so few people showed up it was eerie... now normally we're talking an event
that years ago... eight years ago started out with six or seven people and a
couple of years ago we had three hundred and fifty...
Q: What
year did you have three hundred and fifty? '88?
L: It
wasn't this year, but the year before... '91. It had gotten to such tremendous
proportions... now we keep the date secret, because we had three airplanes land
on the drylake... people getting out... it was an event... and what really
ended it that year was it got so out of hand there were hundreds of people I
didn't know... and that didn't know me... and it was my event and where some
drunk guy had come up to me that year and I was in the way of whatever he
wanted to do and he had the gall to ask me who invited me... which I thought
was great... and I said, well, that's it... and now we've purposely cut it down
and try to keep it between fifty and a hundred people and people we know and
are friends and we can all sit together and have a barbecue and go crazy and
watch...
Q: That's
great...
L: In fact,
while we're talking, I'll just let a tape run and you can see...
(MACHINE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
L: ...
something happened with the brothel and all that... of course all the TV hoopla
had aired already and the prosecutor thought, this is great, because we're
really going to discredit the guy and make him look like a lunatic... he
believes in flying saucers and so on and so forth... so they convinced the
judge to do a psychiatric report on me that he had intended to use against
me... look this guy's a idiot and so on and so forth... so they had an
independent group of people give me a psychological analysis and it backfired
tremendously on them, because it came back... well, this is the original
copy...
Q: Jon
mentioned this in the airplane coming up... he said that there'd be an MMPI --
Minnesota (sp?) multi-phasic personality inventory...
L: Yeah...
that's right.
Q: It's
just amazing what you can tell from a line.
L: It's
amazing because there's a lot of stuff that you really don't know about
yourself until... like in response to authority... he shows tendency to get people
to (UNCLEAR) and then resist them... which I always thought was funny, because
when I first read that I thought that was ridiculous... but you know I actually
caught myself doing that... getting everyone riled up and until they come back
and say... okay, let's do it and... nah... I don't want to. I think that's
really strange. It really does reveal some of your interesting quirks.
Q: It does,
but then again it doesn't, because some times they draw completely the wrong
conclusions. Can I make a copy of this...
L: You can
take that with you...
Q: May I...
and I'll send it back you.
L: Yeah,
that's fine. But don't make copies... I mean, that is kind of personal.
Q: It's
good you said that.
(MACHINE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
L: ... I
hated to sit down and (UNCLEAR)... I wanted to climb around and get dirty and,
you know, hook wires together and do everything... from making up the
refrigeration to the alignment to everything... so I was frequently just
crawling around on top of everything...
Q: Is there
a time when they actually give a command to fire them in the accelerator?
L: Well,
the accelerator... they don't shut it off. Once they shut it off, things cool
down and the alignment all goes to hell... so it's running and they have plugs
at each of the exits... they call them beam (sp?) plugs... but before you fire
it... you energize the big things like the super conducting magnets and things
like that... and you get on the intercom -- Area B is where we were... and you
essentially announce, Area B, standby for Hera (sp?)... Hera was the super
conducting magnet we used to be energized...
Q: What's
the name of the magnet?
L: Hera...
they named all of the magnets after women... I have no idea why.
(LAUGHTER)
L: Because
there were spectacular accidents that occurred with the magnets...
Q: Any that
you saw?
L: I only
saw little ones... the great ones I always missed. You know, those big gas
cyclinders that weigh a lot... I imagine are a hundred and fifty pounds... they
had outside of the area... again, a garage type door, a line marked where the
field of the magnet extended and if you had a pocketknife... in your hand... it
will pull it through your bones until it comes out the otherside... there's no
if, ands, or buts... these were some of the most powerful magnets on earth and
a guy... cause I came in one day and the target and everything we had set up...
this delicate... months of work... obliterated... there's nothing there
anymore... and a guy... the pushcart that carried the... or handtracks... that
carried the cyclinders have a chain that goes around them... you lock off so
the cyclinder can't fall out. This guy didn't have the chain on... and he
walked in through the area and the cyclinder just lept... cause it was an
aluminum cart so as to be non-magnetic... and he should have been carrying the
cyclinder, but the cyclinder was steel and it lept and flew in the air like a
torpedo and the magnet was donut shaped and in the center on the target the
beam fired out and this thing just blasted through there and oscillated back
and forth destroying everything... just hung up in the center and broke the
edge of the magnet... a very spectacular thing... and I didn't get to see that.
I saw little things like... from clear across the room... a nut fly near the
speed of sound by my head and things like that... but nothing as spectacular as
that.
Q: How long
did you work there?
L: Ahh...
two years... three years...
Q: Now that
was out of school that you went to work there... or did you...
L: No... I
always went to school as I was working.
Q: Were you
in school when you were there?
L: No...
not when I went to Los Alamos... I was... I had left California at Fairchild
Electronics and I was going to CalTech in Pasadena there and so I left
Fairchild... applied at Los Alamos.
Q: Now when
you filled out the paperwork...
L: Do you
mind if I eat in front of you?
Q: Oh...
please eat. When you filled out your paperwork for your clearance...
L: Where?
Q: Los
Alamos... which that paperwork, most assuredly, was passed on to the EG&G
folks...
L: Sure.
Q: Same
paperwork... same government agencies looking at the paperwork... on that were
all the information that had to be erased to begin to make you a non-person...
tell me about your personal files disappearing... records of you...
L: The
reason I found that out... was because of George Knapp... after I told him,
that's when he went back and started investigating everything...
Q: Who you
were?
L: Umm...
hmm... the first thing was that... Los Alamos has no record of you ever being
employed there... and I said, well, that's interesting... I went to school,
Fairchild... even the previous address... there was nothing anywhere... he
said, I can't verify anything... I said, well, that's not possible. He said I
can't even verify that you lived in Los Alamos... and I said, now that's
ridiculous... so I found an old phone book and said, see, that's me... and some
friends that worked there and for Los Alamos...
Q: Some
people came forward from Los Alamos and said, yeah, you worked here?
L: Yeah.
What else disappeared?
Q: What
college records disappeared?
L: All of
them... except for Pierce College... and I don't know why... Pierce College I
was just at for a short time...
Q: Is
Pierce in...
L: Woodland
Hills... California...
Q: There's
another Pierce, I believe in New Hampshire...
L: Right
after I left high school I went into Pierce cause I wasn't sure where I wanted
to go...
Q: High
school records still around?
L: No... I
think the high school records have suddenly reappeared... as have many other
ones... Los Alamos, who denied everything continuously, even when George
presented them with look at all the stuff, Bob worked here, and they said,
well, maybe he worked for a sub-contractor or something... the people that
originally denied all of that... have moved on at Los Alamos... and recently...
now we're talking five years later... George again re-submitted all that and
what I had said about Los Alamos... and my entire story... and George has this
in writing from Los Alamos, they said, apparently everything Bob Lazar said is
true, from what we can see here... so whatever records... whatever people were
involved in that have now moved on and it didn't pass down... so... as far
as... the Los Alamos thing is the thing that suprised me the most... because
there were so many... that was so recent... there were so many people there....
how can they deny that I even lived in the town... it was ridiculous... it was
really ridiculous...
Q: Was it
George Knapp that came up with the W2 form from Naval Intelligence?
L: No, that
I got... I can't remember exactly how that transpired... someone must have
called me... because I didn't call them... I don't remember how that started...
Gene will remember.
Q: But that
was only a small amount of money on that...
L: Well, it
was... however the conversation originally started... whoever was contacted...
they were asking me about something and I said, well, I never got my W2 form
and they said well, you should have contacted us before... and I didn't want to
say, well, I didn't know who you guys were... what was going on... and I
said... do you have a copy of it there... now, this is when everything... and
he said, yeah, it's right in front of me and I said, well, can you send me a
copy? And what that original W2 form was, I was told during the interview that
the first check would be retro-active through the investigation period... which
is all that first check was for... which was just the time the interviews and
any other time I spent... that was not actual for any work time... and that was
the only one he had on file in front of him... so, he went ahead...
Q: So that
was '88.
L: Yeah, so
he went ahead and sent that to me... whoever that guy was.
Q: Now in
'89... how did they pay you?
L: Check.
Q: Cash the
check and the check's gone... check from EG&G...
L: No...
EG&G had nothing to do with them... there were no EG&G personnel in
that building... all Naval Intelligence did was use the planes and the building
for rendezvous... EG&G personnel were not allowed out at S4...
Q: Who's
name was on the check?
L:
Department of Naval Intelligence... which started a big controversy, too,
because supposedly there is no Department of Naval Intelligence... there's only
an Office of Naval Intelligence... but strangely enough the guys on the model
company... the Testor company... John Andrews... was real... cause they're
military modelers and they have all the military connections... he became very
interested in that and began to trace down that and actually found an address
and a zip code in Washington that went to a Special Department of Naval
Intelligence and that zip code matched the zip code on my W2 form... and that's
how the model guys became interested... and there were other people that began
to check IRS records. And, at that time, I was giving carte blanche to check
everything... before everything got carried away and everyone decided to pry
into my life... I gave people written authorizations to go through my IRS
records and they would go up to 1986 and everything was blank after that...
there was no contributions to anything... there were no deposits... there was
no employment... no anything... the guy that did that was Bob Ekler (sp?) and
still has the correspondence with the IRS... so on and so forth.
Q: What
about now... are there records now?
L: Yeah,
actually the records now start with right after I kind of came back to the real
world. There's just a big gap there. Also, at the same time, George Knapp was
still investigating everything. So he filed countless freedom of information
act requests... well, we know I worked at Los Alamos... had Q clearance...
let's see some of the investigations... let's see anything... any of the
files... so, to this day, they say there are no files on me and never have
been, which is impossible... absolutely impossible to believe, so some well
known occurrences that George knew of... that have been documented before...
he'd seen other things about them... he also filed information requests on and
they said they couldn't find any of that stuff either... so... someone was
intentionally preventing information from reaching certain people and it was
apparrently on a federal level... so... it was a really screwy time trying to
track things down. It's not like anything re-appeared all at once, but just, I
think the things just moved on... years later, after requesting the same things
that had been requested almost literally tens of times prior, they said, here
you go, what's the problem...
Q: That's
right. Because you've been apparently discredited. The files that you were
reading at S4, I can remember a figure of 130...
L: A
hundred and twenty-one...
Q: Hundred
and twenty-one... the files were thick... thin... fat... wide...?
L: Two or
three pages... very few were thick.
Q: Off the
top of your head can you, in your first sit-down in that room, can you tell me
the names of some of the files that you were reading or that...
L: There
were no names...
Q: There
were no names...
L: They
were all a little darker than that... just navy blue paper folders... with no
title and they start in the middle of nowhere... it looked like they were
actually extracted from another report. And I even recall the first couple
reports I pulled out... I wasn't sure if it was a mistake or not... they left
pages out... till I started looking at other ones.
Q: The
files that you looked at the first time were about... just generally... I'll
tell you why I'm asking... I'm going to look for a progress in the information
that they were giving to you.
L: It was
basically dealing with the propulsion system... there was a definite
progression. Because initially, I don't think initially, I can't remember
because all those days, you know, have gone together... but I don't think
initially there was even a mention of recovered craft... they just spoke
strictly about the reactor or...
Q: And when
you were reading about this reactor, this sounded to you like something we
were...
L: We were
developing... because it was just a very brief overview of what was going on...
how gravity could be manipulated and the power levels involved and how the
field...
Q: And it
all made sense to you?
L: It all
made sense to me... of course, in my mind, I thought, boy, have we come far
from what... I thought I was on the cutting edge of science here... how could
this have possibly gone on?
Q: What did
you think when you saw the autopsy report? Let me ask that question a different
way... did... were there photographs?
L: Yeah.
Actually the autopsy report we're talking about was two photographs with
notations on the bottom... this is what I've called the autopsy report.
Q: Do you
recall what the notations said?
L: Yeah.
They were mostly weights and measures. One was an upper torso... of the
creature...
Q: On a
slab?
L: Yeah, on
a table. And they had cut the chest open in a T fashion and peeled it back...
and there was a separate inset on the photograph of... you know how fresh liver
looks like it's liquid almost?
Q: Umm hmm...
L: There's
one organ that apparently does everything and later... the other photograph...
that organ itself was cut open and there were separate chambers... kind of a
whole bunch of things were together. But I think they were essentially pulled
out of some autopsy report or other report... just to show me what the
creatures looked like themselves... so it wasn't a full body picture.
Q: What
were you thinking about when you saw that? Now you haven't seen the spacecraft
yet, have you?
L: No...
that true.
Q: Maybe
you had seen the spacecraft, but you thought it was one of ours...
L: Yeah, I
had already come in the door that time and looked into the spacecraft... yeah,
because that occurred on the second day and there's no way I saw those reports
on the second day.
Q: Okay.
L: I know
when I saw those photographs there was no doubt in my mind that we were dealing
with alien technology... by that time I had already begun to realize what was
going on...
Q: Black
and white pictures...
L: Yeah...
8x10 glossies with a white border around them...
Q: Nothing
else... just two photographs and... you got the impression it was done there or
somewhere else?
L: I didn't
get an impression.
Q:
(UNCLEAR) said, when we were coming up at one point, you felt like crying...
either when you were near the craft or when you came... began to become aware
of what all of this meant.
L: Ahh...
maybe he's talking about when I went into the craft for the first time.
Q: Tell me
about that.
L: It was
like... I don't know... I know I didn't say I felt like crying...
Q: This was
the second time, right...
L: Yeah,
when I actually walked inside... like I said before, it's an ominous feeling,
but I don't know how to describe it... there are no words in my vocabulary that
I can explain this with...
Q: You were
all alone?
L: No...
no... and there were other people in the craft, but I just blotted them out of
my mind... it was such an eerie feeling... the feeling was that... it sounds
stupid... the feeling was that I shouldn't be in there... that we shouldn't be
in there... a feeling of trespassing... a feeling... because it felt so
unbelievably alien... no pun intended, but there was nothing that seemed
familiar at all... and whether... you can walk into a room and anything may
seem familiar... where two walls go together... subconsciously... but
everything, to the last detail, things that you might subconsciously see, such
a tremendous amount of metal with no seams... with no right angles... the
color... there is no color in there... everything is one color essentially... a
giant stainless steel injection mold... everything seemed so absolutely
unusual... kind of what makes hospitals seem so strange... because they're so
different... white... empty... it's an unusual place... but a thousand times
that... also, of course, in the back of your mind knowing what it is... you
didn't fit right in there, because you have to hunch down... so you know it
wasn't even made for people... and, in the back of your mind, you're
wondering... now how was the thing acquired... and hopefully it was not with
force... because somebody's going to come and get us back... all this going
through your mind, but there was no excitement or exhilaration... because
that's what everyone asked and everyone automatically assumed, but that feeling
was absolutely not there whatsoever... it was when the craft lifted off the
ground. And maybe I was more at ease about it... or the fact that I was just
separated from it, but it was very disturbing and, I don't know, I was
depressed... I can't... do you kind of see what I'm saying?
Q: Exactly.
L: Boy, I
really wish I could relay that, but I can't.
Q: You did
a good job. You were in there for a couple of minutes?
L:
Actually, a little while... went inside and I looked around...
Q: Who were
you with again?
L:
Dennis...
Q: Okay.
L: And... I
think Barry stayed in the lab.
Q: Dennis
said he wanted you to see something.
L: No, that
was for the test...
Q: That's
right.
L: The
flight test. He wanted to show me, because we were going to be dealing with the
amplifiers themselves... how they hung in the lower portion of the disc and
there's a hexagonal shaped grid on the floor... that's kind of a crawl space...
well, for them it's a crawl space... for me you could squeeze in there... and
it was a tinsel (?) brilliant hole... you know you can buy a six pack of beer
or soda pop... more specifically beer... actually take the bottles out and just
the box... even if you push on opposite corners it goes completely flat... but
it's strong the other way, obviously cause the cardboard is standing up... this
was thin sheet metal... all made in hexagons... so it was a honeycomb and there
was a hole cut out in the corner and you could walk on... cause it was
incredibly strong that way... but with the slightest pressure, when you put
your finger in the hole, it all collapsed flat and you could then enter the
hole. And I thought, what a fantastic door... something so simple, but I had
never seen or heard of it before... infinitely strong this way... but has no
strength that way... and no hinges... nothing... just completely resistant all
with some springy metal. Something that we could certainly duplicate, and I've
always waited to see that pop up somewhere... that was going to be one of the
clues to me that this information was leaking to the private sector... but I
never did see that... cause I thought, that's the simplest thing... that'll pop
up somewhere... but, anyway, that collapsed in and I was able to stick my head
down and hang upside down and see how the amplifiers were positioned and... so
however long that took.
Q: And then
you got on the airplane that night and went home.
L: Right.
Q: How did
you feel when you were on the airplane after that day?
L: Oh, that
night... I kept... that's what really stuck in my mind... I kept replaying the
event of mainly being in the craft itself, trying to remember... wondering why
so much empty space... wondering what was on the upper level... just thinking
how absolutely simple everything was and comparing it to systems that I'm
familiar with... telephones looked more complicated than what was going on
there... no buttons... no anything... tremendous amounts of power being
generated, but there's no wiring... it was... it's a first approximation... do
you know what that is in engineering?...
Q: First
iteration (sp?)....
L: Yeah...
it's the simplest cartoon drawing of how everything works and then the first
approximation with all the technicalities to it... but it was a functioning
first approximation... and it was just so simple... the way everything was laid
out... that's really all I thought about... the other reports... I guess the
technology had taken me so much because it was such an impression as compared
to reading words... actually being there and facing it... that was what left an
impression.
Q: You
couldn't tell anybody when you left there.
L: No.
Q: And you
came back...
L: No...
that was one of those nights when I went for the drive... the big drive...
Q: How far
did you go?
L: I went
up to Tonapa(sp?) and back the other way... so...
Q: Well,
roughly what time did you leave... you got back probably what... eleven...
one... something like that...
L: Got back
from where? From my drive?
Q: No...
from up at S4.
L: No... I
got back fairly early... I'd say about nine... nine-thirty...
Q: Was your
wife home when you came home?
L: I don't
remember.
Q: You
couldn't talk to anybody... you couldn't call anybody.
L: No...
and I did lay down for awhile... but was feeling just kind of too antsy and,
just like I talked about in traffic, even though you can't do anything, you
just want to progress somewhere... so maybe it was a way of releasing it... so
I got in the car and just started driving up that way... I really don't know
how far Tonapa is, but it's a long way...
Q: Couple
of hours...
L: No...
it's more than that... it's like four hours...
Q: You
drove four hours...
L: Yeah...
Q: And then
you came back another four?
L: Yeah, I
came back... well, it was time to go to work... I stayed up all night and I
never became tired and I always get tired when I drove... but I guess the
adrenalin kept me going...
Q: When you
say go to work... that's not going back up...
L: No...
no, remember, I still had my other business running and I had told them up
front, until I go on full time, I really can't cut that out.
Q: Now...
the other business... was that building the monitors... or was that the
processing...
L: The
processing. I had hired someone... Jim's girlfriend, Shelley, was taking over
the business, solely to run it for me as I worked up there... so, I called her
on odd days and say, I'm going to work tomorrow... so could you run the photo
business... so on and so forth... since I knew I would not be working the next
day... in that morning I'd be running photos.
Q: How many
days... four days... three days went by before they called you up again and
said, it's now 3:21...
L: Yeah,
something like that... again, that's on the calendar.
Q: Remember
what you felt like when you went back up there after that?
L: When I
went back, I was much more at ease with it and I was really excited because I
had felt... I had the impression that... well, we went in to look around at
that time, so maybe we were going to get to work in the craft. And, not so much
in the lab, but we were going to actually be doing things in there and I was
positive at one time that I was going to get to be in the thing when it was
being flight tested, but that never occurred...
Q: Did you
ask anybody that?
L: No...
never... no... I didn't want to seem too anxious.
Q: Dennis
ask you how you felt or anything... did he ever say... what do you think about
this?
L: Ahh...
I'm sure he did, though I can't recall specifically... I know Barry did on
several occasions and...
Q: Barry
ever tell you what he thought about it?
L: No.
Q: These
guys are really enigmas as far as what they really think and feel. What did
they... they started to pull the hardware off and bring it into your lab?
L: Well...
it was off already... one of the amplifiers and the reactor... and from what I
understood, the reactors were the same in all of the craft... which leads one
to speculate did they all come from the same place... or someone was sub-contracting
out reactors...
Q: So now
you're in the lab... which is probably what... a couple of tables and ah...
L: It was
actually fairly large... there was an area back further in the lab where that
equipment was on... one of the amplifiers was laying on a table... the reactor
was on a separate plate...
Q: How
large were those items?
L: The
amplifier form itself was about two feet in diameter and four feet long... the
reactor was maybe eighteen inches...
Q: So you
went in there and the first assignment was... the identification of the fuel
element?
L: Right.
That's where Barry showed me how the reactor operated and what it did when you
put the field on it...
Q: Barry...
did you read at any time briefly files about specifically the technology behind
the reactor or was your source largely Barry?
L: Both.
Q: Good...
because when I was watching the video tape, where you're talking about the
science involved in this... it was a very sophisticated exposition... as to how
the hardware worked... so there were files... there was Barry... and it plugged
into the science that you came evolved in with...
L: If there
hadn't been, I would have put a lot less credit in the other reports that I
read. That's my only connection with the reports to reality... so, if that hadn't
occurred, I'd have been very skeptical of the rest of the stuff I'd been
reading. Other than the fact that it was just so strange... as if you couldn't
say that about everything, but you become very comfortable with technology very
fast... and, I don't know if people do that with everything, maybe they do, but
technology is just the thing that I can think of most off the top of my head...
as soon as you... take the FAX for instance... technology might not exist... no
one knows what they are... but now they're available to everyone and after you
use them for just a short while, they're absolutely indispensable... how can
you get along without them. They demystify very fast... no matter what the
device is or how big the system is... even the craft, as I started getting into
it, it was no longer the ship of a deity... it was this is almost attainable by
us... yes, it's advanced, but I can already understand it and I can almost
envision duplicating this one day.
Q: Tell me
about a couple of the elements... that when you talk about almost attainable...
because I'm going to call some of these things out... jet propulsion system...
the guidance system...
L: Guidance
I know nothing about...
Q: Okay.
L: I only
assume that that's what was going on in the top part of the craft and that's
what these windows... they aren't really windows... but I always assumed that
they were sensor rays of some sort... that wherever the craft was that's how it
got its lock on where it was... whether it matched up stars or whatever the
thing was looking at, but I think that's where the sensor ray was from here up
was everything to do with navigation.
Q: Okay.
L: But I
really don't know.
Q: But the
propulsion system looked like something to you that...
L: It was
fantastically advanced, but, once you basically understand what's going on...
especially with the reactor, all these things... even today... you look at
science fiction... Star Wars... death rays and laser guns and all that... the
technology isn't that far away, the main thing in all of the exotic science
fiction technology type weapons and things laid out... is power... it really
is... that's the reason there's no hand-held ray guns... and things like
that... because you don't have 10 megawatts available in the palm of your hand
and there's absolutely no way to get it. It doesn't matter how inefficient the
device is... as long as you have the power, you can overcome all of that. So
that's why it all came back to the reactor... how you can have that much power
there... after we kind of began to get a handle on how the reactor operated...
oh, look, it's a cyclotron... in fact, it looks like one of the earlier
cyclotrons made, which was a small thirteen inch, we assertained, essentially,
what was in the bottom plate of that and here's the path off that comes up and
reacts with the element... it's advanced, sure, it's nothing that small,
nothing that powerful... but it's understandable... I guess it was kind of
comforting that it was possible to... it's as if someone showed you a television
set the size of the top of your thumb... no, we can't make it that small... but
I understand how it works and eventually parts are going to get that small, so
it's not amazing... it's a good job, but... it's not completely amazing... and
it began to boil down to that level. Now, of course, I was concentrating on
specific parts...
Q: You
disassembled it in the lab?
L: Well, it
only disassembled so far... there wasn't a whole lot we could take apart...
but, yeah, what we could disassemble, we did. And, once you begin to understand
the parts, it kind of gives you confidence in that... well, if we can
understand this... we can do that... you could eventually see knowing what was
going on... so it demystified it... but there was nothing to demystify everything
else in the other reports... those were still a mystery and fantastic and there
were still pictures of aliens that I'd yet to see... and reports on other
aspects of the project that I didn't see... so that was still a mystery... so
it began to divide.
Q: So the
fuel element... you saw that for the first time in the lab?
L: Yeah.
Q: Tell me
about that.
L: That was
when Barry was going to fire up the reactor... he kept it in a container... and
took it out with a pair of tongs... it was triangular in shape and took the lid
off the reactor and put the element... well, there's another cap that comes
off, and put it in the little tower... replaced the cap and put the lid on and
the reactor fired up. As soon as you put it (UNCLEAR), it fired up. And that
was the first time I saw it. Course, he gave an explanation... this is how the
thing runs... this is the fuel, as far as we know, and... they had much more
fuel than that... whether it was in one of the craft or what, I don't know, but
they had a lot more than was necessary to run the craft. They were very
interested in possibly substituting something for that fuel. Not just finding
out how that reactor worked... but duplicating it with earthly material. They
wanted something simple... made out of stuff they had, essentially.
END OF TAPE
5 -- SIDE B
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S4 - THE
ROBERT LAZAR STORY
TAPE 6 --
SIDE A
Q:
Questions
L: Lazar
Q: Bob, in
the tape that I saw you talking about the science involved in the propulsion
system... you mentioned a couple of lines about a superbomb. Is that
information that you've read in files, or is that something that you deduced
from the...
L: Just
general physics knowledge... just from being involved in nuclear weapons...
look at the energy released in a nuclear bomb... I mean 99 percent of that
energy... 100 percent of the energy released from an atomic explosion comes
from 1 percent of the mass that we put in there... the rest of the mass is
blown away and never gets into the reaction... so it's a very inefficient
bomb... a lot of the energy is wasted in by products and other garbage that
comes out of it... but here is... an anti-matter (?) reaction that's perfectly
clean... perfectly efficient... a 100 percent efficient... imagine a device
made utilizing that element... somehow... would release all the energy in it...
would be millions of times more energy per given unit of matter than anything
we've seen before... so it certainly presents a potential... excluding the
crap... the alien... all the information... the fuel itself certainly has the
potential to be converted into an awesome continent-destroying weapon.
(MAJOR TAPE
GLITCH)
Q: The fuel
went to Los Alamos? Some of the fuel went to Los Alamos?
L: Yes.
Q: Now...
we began to talk yesterday about...
L: Now, I
do wonder if that's something to put in the movie or not...
(MACHINE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
L: At the
time I had the accelerator set-up in this little lab I had... in fact I still
have most of the pieces of it here... and I still have on tape that part of the
expose where the camera, George is interviewing and we purposely put it in
there, and it came in a very recognizable holder... and what I had done... in a
large disc... and what I had done was scribe a target on it... and I had my
accelerator set up and it was sitting in a holder at the end of the
accelerator... almost as if to be a threat... and there was a few seconds shot
of it on the news... there was nothing said... and all it was was just... this
is where the missing 115 is... and it was... that was great to me. It was
actually after that when Dennis called to have that meeting. As far as that
entering the story anywhere... it entered there and then disappeared.
Q: Well,
we'll take a look at it... whether it's important to the story or not today,
I'm not sure. When you were talking about all these things... you were
polygraphed... was that George Knapp that arranged for that?
L: Umm hmm. Yeah, he said to me... will you take
a polygraph... I said sure. Interestingly... there were two polygraphs taken.
The first one, George thought a lot of this was going to be criticized and he
wanted to get a guy that no one could possibly say he would be in cahoots
with... so he found this polygraph examiner that, I don't remember the story
exactly, but used to always hit on his girlfriends... who he truly hated... so
no one could really say... they could have ever worked together... the guy had
been watching, unfortunately, all the reports on TV and the first thing he said
to me, after hooking me up, now this is not a polygraph guy like you would
think... very... didn't seem like an ex-cop or something like that... so the
first thing he said to me, when I sat down, after he strapped me in, he said,
you are my ticket to the Donahue Show. And I knew, this was not going well...
because after that he said... well, the results look good, and stuff like
that... and then he started mentioning things like that to me... like, if we
could go on and do this on a national level.. I said, I am not going to... you
are out of your mind. I said, we came down here because George said you'd be
the guy... absolutely not... I'm not even talking in your favor as far as
anything's concerned... you can just forget about it... so after that, the guy
said, well, he could be relaying information that he heard from someone that he
absolutely believes more than anything in the world... so on and so forth, so
he told George... so I'm not standing up for anybody or anything... get the
hell out of here. So George... and I told George what the guy said, and he
said, all right... we're going to find some guy... and they did... they found
an ex-cop from California... a number one polygraph guy and the guy he trained
with is like the Polygraph Association President, whatever it is... that's in
Arizona... so unlike the thirty-second talk I had with the guy, he sat down and
had a two and a half hour quiz before that... and then an hour long
polygraph... and then a multi-hour thing after that... which completely
exhausted me... and his results were... you know, I absolutely was telling
essentially what I believed was the truth... he then went and sent the results
off to his superior, who also concurred, and that was the end of the polygraph
thing.
Q: Great.
We've covered a lot of ground here today. I just asked Bob, what.. is it...
L: Tracy...
Q: Tracy...
what Tracy's attitude was when they were driving up to see the testflights on
Wednesday nights...
L: She was
never serious, I mean, she was always... said everything was a laugh... so you
could never tell how serious she was. You know what I'm talking about... there
are always people like that... She believed it... I have no doubt about that...
but it wasn't... she never took a real serious look at anything... she was very
much... but she was young... she was about nineteen years old... so I should
find that tape of that particular day... from the two or three seconds you
might get an idea...
Q: That
would be great...
L: How she
acts.
Q: That
would be great... did your marriage end during this time?
L: Yeah.
Q: Was it
before the brothel hearing or after?
L: Oh, way
before.
Q: Was it
before or after George Knapp's expose?
L: Before.
But after the first time I went on with George. And, in us discussing it, well,
why didn't all this work out and stuff like that... she did tell me that the
UFO stuff did play a big part because of all the oppression and whatnot and
what was going on with people around and not knowing what was going on and also
fear... she really became afraid of everything.
Q: She
packed and left.
L: Yeah.
Q: Were you
in this house?
L: Umm hmm. It's understandable to some point
(?)....
Q: It must
have been terribly difficult for both of you. Terribly difficult.
L: There
was just far too much happening at one time... it was unbelievable...
Q: Did you
ever feel like you were losing your...
L: This is
bringing back little memories that I never remember now... shortly... right
before that time, we had gone to a marriage counselor that we saw, I think, a
total of two times. We went the first time and started explaining this and he
said, boy, you guys have a lot of problems, but we never told him about the UFO
stuff and, it was like the last good laugh we had together, the second time we
went we kind of unloaded on him and said this is everything that's going on and
he sat there and disgested it and he said, these people are after you... and
flying saucers... and you're seeing another guy... and he said, I really don't
think you guys should come back again. And we laughed all the way home about
that... and that was great... that was really great... to have a counselor tell
you to get out...
(LAUGHTER)
L: But I
interrupted you...
Q: No...
that's... listen... little stories like that are great... I mean they're
great...
L: I can't
remember his name, but that was something...
Q: This is
the tape?
L: This is
the... this is probably a Desert Blast tape.
Q: What do
the debunkers say about your motivation for all of this? I'm sure they're
lining up three deep and they...
L: They
are... but they're genuinely confused because I'm not trying to compete with
them for books, or movies... or not movies... they never did see any financial
reason to do it. I hate publicity and going on TV or being interviewed more
than anything. So they didn't see any motive to become a star... and what has
always driven them crazy is because they haven't been able to pin down anything
and say, well, ahh hah. That's what he's after. Though they went after some
strange things... but most of it was that I wouldn't... the big organization
MUFON, which considers themselves the UFO clearing house, if someone has a
sighting... they should be told and they will determine whether this is true or
false.
Q: MUFON
stands for...
L: The
Mutual UFO Network... and they have members all over the world now. Now, I
grouped all the UFO people as crazy... and I wouldn't talk to them or give them
an interview and a lot of their original dissention was because they basically
didn't have the whole story and I wasn't about to tell them and they... as the
psychological report says, I respond to authority by resisting it... and that
is absolutely so true and if they just wouldn't have started off on the wrong
foot... they came in as, more along the lines of, we demand the following
information from you. And, of course, my response is... you're not getting any
information ever, period. In fact, that's it. So, they had to assume lots of
things and that's why they originally came up with... things we did have proof
for... they said, that's impossible for him to have done this because... but,
so a lot of it was due to the fact that they really didn't have much
information and, as the story got around and was repeated and retold, and
every... whether it's in a book, or a TV show or something... wherever the
story is retold... there is consistantly always two or three things that are
completely wrong in it. And with that... they occasionally say, ah ha!... the
story's changing or things they still don't have information about... but
mainly it's because they just don't have the entire story. No one has really
sat down with them and got into the fine points of everything.
Q: That's
your jet... I missed that... your jet car.
L: I'll
just move ahead.
Q: Bob, we
can come back to that... I was fascinated by the image of your jet car... is
the jet car on this next segment also?
L: Yeah.
Q: Great.
(MACHINE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
Q: Bonkers...
BUFON... umm...
L: Mainly
it was because they didn't have much information. And they would concentrate on
different little aspects of the story that they couldn't confirm or were
frustrated with and (VIDEO TAPE PLAYS IN B.G.)
(MACHINE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON AND THE CALENDAR DAY BY DAY -- AUGUST '88 THROUGH AUGUST
'89 BEGINS AS A SEPARATE FILE.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S4 - THE
ROBERT LAZAR STORY
CALENDAR --
AUGUST 1988 THROUGH AUGUST 1989
(CONTINUATION
OF TAPE 6 -- SIDE A)
SEPTEMBER
4, 1988
Tracy's 2nd
solo cross-country flight. She was working on her pilot's license.
SEPTEMBER
7, 1988
Joe, the
guy I knew and worked with in Los Alamos, came to visit. And left on the 10th.
[Groom Lake
= 125 miles. This is just a mileage note. It doesn't occur on this date, it's a
note to myself how far the drive was... that was one of my excursions up there.
There will be some deceiving stuff on the calendar intentionally. We'll run
into other stuff like this.]
SEPTEMBER
13, 1988
Testing
some fireworks at the drylake about twenty minutes away. [As a side note, this
is how I spent a lot of my thinking time, more or less, was just driving up
there alone because it's totally isolated. There's no one there... there's
absolutely no sound... and frankly it looks like a different planet. Why
shooting off fireworks is relaxing, but it's just one of those things.]
Call Vinny,
a guy that was doing some work for me on the body of the jetcar --
insignificant.
More
insignificant stuff here -- ordering chemicals for Desert Blast.
UFO Film is
a note to myself to get a film John Lear gave me out of the house. He gave me a
bunch of documents, after I had first met him. Then I began to wonder how
intelligent it was keeping that stuff around should there be another surprise
visit, more or less.
OCTOBER 1,
1988
Tracy becomes
a pilot. [I met Tracy in Los Alamos and she was basically doing nothing. She
was just working at Pizza Huts and things like that... and didn't have many
friends up there... nothing was really going on and she moved out here into a
strange environment and we frequently went to air shows and she got a real kick
out of that... so, I paid for her to take one of those trial flights and she
fell in love with it... so, she started taking lessons. They let her work on
the weekends, not as a secretary, but something there, to kind of work it off
and she got away kind of easy. We got married here. After I left Los Alamos I
was with my first wife.]
OCTOBER 4,
1988
John Lear
at 8pm [What's happening here is, I'm trying to show that I knew John Lear from
a long time ago. And I think you're going to see something really obvious, if I
remember... I'll start calling John something else... well, let me just go
through it, instead of looking ahead. Anyway... that has nothing to do with
that date.]
Q: In this
time period, here we are in the beginning of October, you're running your
business.
L: Right,
businesses are running fine.
Q: Making
probes...
L: Making
probes... doing the photo business and basically I was looking for something to
do to give Tracy... so we could have two incomes... and Tracy would be working
the photos and I would go off full time and work somewhere else and get
something a little more mentally stimulating.
Where the
World Series started.
OCTOBER 14,
1988
UFO
Cover-up [This is actually on that date... at Shelly's with Jim. This was
interesting... and Jim will recall this day... he came over... now, before this
I didn't know who John Lear was and had an article in the paper about some guy
who said the aliens are here and they're taking over and all that stuff and is
giving lectures at the library and Jim brought it over and showed it to me and
Jim was thinking about going there and wanted to know if I wanted to go with
him and I told him he was crazy... and what a total waste of time. And he said,
well, I'm going to go and I said, okay, fine... he said why don't you come over
tonight cause the guy's going to be on TV. So, I think, this is the first time
I saw anything and it was some special that was on TV about people being
abducted and stuff like that and I don't remember exactly what was going on in
there, but John was telling his normal UFO story and there were a couple of
other people... you know... I've been abducted... so, that was the first time
I'd seen John on TV.]
OCTOBER 15,
1988
Tracy's dad
comes to visit. [Which is interesting, about a month later... there's something
here about me sending resumes out -- mid- October.]
Q: Now
Tracy's dad lives in Los Alamos.
L: Right.
Q: Works at
the lab there or does something else?
L: No, he
works at the lab... explosives.
OCTOBER 19,
1988
Jim to
Tonapa. [Tracy's dad leaves and Jim is now working up at the test site on the
Stealth... I don't know if that was the first time he'd been up there... but
that's when he's starting his, more or less, secret work.]
There was
something here I crossed out and then wrote John Lear at 4:30.
(AT THIS
POINT THE DOORBELL RINGS AND GENE ARRIVES)
G: John
Lear was on TV and we were making fun of him...
L: In fact
I just found that day when he was on...
G: On
"On The Record"?
L: Whatever
it was.
G: He was
on "On The Record" with George in August of '88, wasn't he?
L: Maybe?
August isn't on here.
Q: So you
were sitting around making fun of the guy talking about UFO's...
L: You
can't believe the stuff this guy was saying...
G: Well, it
was interesting... Lear comes off very respectable... he looks very
distinguished... white hair... the guy's an airline captain, son of Bill Lear,
who holds all these flying records, and he commands a measure of respect, so he
can get people's attention initially, in fact, some of the first things that we
checked out, for instance, Lear was talking about the U.S. government had this
alien held hostage and he was called EBE-3, Extraterrestrial Biological
Entity-3, and he said he was housed in a facility called YY-2 in Los Alamos,
which was a facility with double-fairday (sp?) shielding... and since Bob had
friends that worked down there he could check and see if this guy knew what he
was talking about or not. And there was a YY-2 facility, but they weren't
holding any aliens. It was a mail stop. I can't remember what else he said,
so... it was a good avenue to see if this guy had anything going... also he
said Jackie Gleason was a buddy of Richard Nixon's and was a major contributor
to the Republican Party and that Nixon had gotten Gleason into CIA Headquarters
in Langley, Virginia and shown Jackie Gleason an alien body they kept on ice
there... so, all this stuff sounds feasible, in fact, this made Bob actually
invent the terminology -- Learonym... as opposed to synonym... homonym... a
Learonym sounds like it's something that could have happened, but didn't.
L: And John
is familiar with this... but you're speaking of the stuff that is half-way
reasonable...
G: Well,
right, right... if you're an innocent by-stander and you see this guy on
television, you would lend him your ear and then investigate... and there's
some value to that... because people will go and investigate and find out he's
crazy, but that maybe there is a body of information there they should examine
so... did you tell him about some of Lear's outrageous stuff?
L: I
couldn't remember...
Q: Tell me
some of it.
G: Lear
said there was a roof on Area 51... a five mile by five mile roof... it was a
dome over this... how did the jets get through it anyway?
L: The
remote control...
G: Yeah,
the theory... see, some abductees... Whitley Striber, amongst others, said that
these aliens would jam these needle-like things up their nose or back behind
their ears and there were these little balls that they couldn't ascertain on
x-ray whether there was anything in there or there were strange things in
people's heads... and these were alleged receivers and transmitters, I guess,
where aliens could communicate with the people without going through their outer
ear.
Q: John
actually believes this...
G: Not only
that... but there were like a million people that had been abducted and
tagged... they call that being tagged... and those that were tagged, at a
specific future date, when the aliens wanted them to act a certain way, that
they would be activated and then the aliens could control these people with a
remote... TV remote controller device.
Q: That's
interesting.
G: And the
Stealth fighter... did you tell him about the Stealth fighter... This was
before the Stealth was made public and Lear... when Lear first met Bob, also,
he didn't know who Bob was and that Bob knew all this stuff and Lear was
telling him a story that the way the Stealth fighter achieved its stealthness
was that it had LCD all over the top and bottom and, say, if you were a jet
flying above a Stealth fighter, there were cameras on the Stealth fighter that
would look at the sky and the LCD's... no, excuse me, look at the ground... and
the LCD's would then make the top of the Stealth fighter look like the
ground... so if you're in the jet looking down, it would blend in with the
ground beneath it and if you're in a jet looking up at it it will then exhibit
the sky... and that's when Bob learned that LCD's were highly radar reflective.
Bob was actually the first one who took exception to everything... literally
everything... Lear said... and it was a great comedy show... cause this guy got
away with murder prior to that.
L: He's a
unique guy.
OCTOBER 23,
1988
Fly to
Ballhead... oh, that's just flying with Tracy. [Who is listed on here as
Jackie, by the way. Her name's Tracy Jacqueline.]
OCTOBER 25,
1988
EG&G --
okay this must be the first interview.
Q: I didn't
see a Teller call.
L: No,
Teller calls all the way down here. No, no this is me dropping the resume off.
I dropped it off on the 25th of October. And like I said, there was going to be
a place where I sent out resumes... they probably all went out around this day.
Q: Now,
Bob, when you got a resume to EG&G, did you know what kind of work they were
doing? Or did someone indicate to you.
L: No, I
brought them everywhere. EG&G was here... so I hand delivered it there. But
there was nothing special about it.
Q: What did
you know about them?
L: Ahh,
that they mainly dealt with high speed measurement is all I knew EG&G
did... and that's how the company was started really... was just photographing
high speed events. And, working at the test site, I thought they were just
involved with high speed data recovery from nuclear devices... and I said, well,
that's acceptable... I'll work there.
G: That's
pretty common knowledge in the Las Vegas area... they're a major employer or a
conduit to employment at the Nevada test site even though there's a lot of
contractors out there... EG&G is the most well known, probably, to the Las
Vegas general public, because of news broadcasts.
OCTOBER 27,
1988
Talk about
stuff.
G: That's
clear.
L: Like I
said, this is even going to confuse me.
Q: That's
okay... this is good.
Stu and
Melissa come to visit again. They leave the day after.
NOVEMBER
1988
L: Now
we're in November. There's another random John Lehr down. That's another one.
G: You're
in November?
L:
November... the beginning of November.
G: Because
George did another "On The Record"... remember, he did a two-parter and
then Lear did a two-parter with Bill Cooper.
Q: Geez...
he does have a good memory. You can remember that? From '88. You ask me where I
was in '88, I'd have to sit and think a minute.
G: Well, I
had gone through this before... were you aware there was a movie deal before
this?
Q: Yes.
G: Okay...
and a screenwriter before... in fact, I understand that it's illegal or
improper, but when you get all this done and everything and you're done and
everything is totally proper... we'd love you to read this great screenplay
this other guy wrote...
Q: I
appreciate the fact that you know I can't read it now...
G: But
someday you can... and when you can...
Q: Someday
I can...
G: And when
you can, I would like you to reflect and say how did this guy get this story
out of this...
Q: Well,
I'll simply say that Bob told him the story... that it was all Bob's idea.
L: Carol's
birthday... oh, my sister... okay.
G: I saw
that, too, and I thought, boy is that strange.
NOVEMBER
17, 1988
L: See, I
wonder if I'm screwing myself up here with my own...
Q: It's
okay... it's absolutely okay...
L: Linda
Howe... I didn't know about Linda Howe for... on the 17th of November...
Q: Who was
Linda Howe?
G: Cattle
mutilation queen... on a video called "The Strange Harvest" back in
'79 or '80...
Q: Oh, I
have that book... I believe I have that...
G:
"The Strange Harvest" was the video that was much better than the
book.
L: Oh, move
into large bedroom...
G: You talk
about recording an insignificant event on your calendar... oh, is that when you
disassembled the lab in the master bedroom and made a bedroom.
NOVEMBER
29, 1988
L: Okay,
Teller called the 29th.
Q: Tell me
what he said again? It was a short call, evidently.
L: It was a
short call. He recalled our meeting in Los Alamos and basically said, there
might be someone who might be interested in you and...
G: You want
me to add if I remember anything?
L: Yes.
Q: Chime
in.
L: 'Cause
Gene was around at that time...
G: When
Edward Teller called, I said, who's Edward Teller... but Teller said that he
was no longer active and only now worked in a chief consultant capacity.
L: Right.
This is great.
G: And so
he couldn't directly give you a job... but he could give you the number of a
guy you could get in contact with here in Las Vegas... and he gave you a
number. And I don't know what else you talked about...
L: That's
better than I remembered it... yet it happened to me.
Q: Did you
call the guy?
L: Yeah.
Q:
Evidently. Did you call him right away or did you wait...
L: Yeah, I
called him right away and that's why a couple of days later on... December 1,
Thursday, I already had an interview.
Q: Okay,
now, here's an important question... when you called the fellow at EG&G...
you called whom?
L: I don't
remember the guy's name... he wasn't a player.
Q: Was he
one of the gentlemen in the meeting on the panel... when you went in there?
L: Yeah.
Q: Did he
know you when you called?
L: Yes.
Teller had already spoken to him.
Q: So he
said, thank you very much for calling...
G: Were you
aware that this guy actually worked for EG&G?
L: No, I
called EG&G because that's where the phone rang and that's where we met...
but they talked so lowly about the EG&G people and personnel... I have a
hard time believing that anyone had anything to do with EG&G.
Q: So, this
guy said come on in on December 1st.
L: Right.
Q: So this
was your first interview there.
L: That's
right.
DECEMBER 1,
1988
First
interview EG&G.
Q: And this
is where he said, you're over-qualified... we don't have anything.
L: Right.
But we might have something in the near future. Which was probably a day or two
after. Okay, I went out... that's where the other interview was... now why
that's not written down, I don't know. Unless something is written here, which
is scribbled out... cause that's about where it should have happened. It was
about a day after.
Q: They
called you back and said would you come in that day?
L: Right.
And that's when the big interview was... wait, that's a Saturday... that's
impossible.
Q: Well,
that's okay... we'll say a day or two later.
L: It might
have been Monday the 5th... and the only reason it's not written down is cause
we thought Tracy was pregnant that day... That's a PRG=1.
G: Oh, Preg
One, that's right.
L: Then
there's doctor stuff, so... and the day doesn't seem to start till three
o'clock, so that makes sense to me.
Q: Now,
would they have called you that morning and asked if you could come in that
day.
L: Yeah...
that's exactly the way everything operated there... just like with the phone
calls.
Q: Okay.
DECEMBER 6,
1988
L: The
following day the 6th was another short interview... meeting people and then
finally going up there.
Q: This is
the day they flew you up there... the sixth... one day after the panel?
L: That
doesn't make sense. This is the day that I went there. I remember writing
"Trip to Nowhere" on there.
G: That's
when you went to S4 the first time.
L: Yeah,
this is the first trip to Area 51.
G: Are you
sure... where was the EG&G...
L: Here.
G: That's
EG&G at four... where's the EG&G over here?
L: Here.
G: Wow... that
had to be dropping the resume off.
L: Yeah, I
know... that's when the resume...
G: Well,
what was this on the 28th?
L: See, I
don't know.
G: Looks
like you scribbled out EG&G.
L: It was
always the day before Teller called, though.
Q: Well,
this will still work... you can wrestle with your memories and say... was that
right or wrong... no one's going to really be too interested in...
L: Well,
obviously this is the day I went up... this was the day of the first
interview... the second interview was somewhere in there...
Q: Trip to
Nowhere is December 6th... and that's about a four o'clock flight up there?
L: Right.
Q: And they
called you at two... three?
L: Right
before two o'clock.
Q: Okay.
Now, you had no idea they were going to call you, right?
L: Right. I
had no idea at all.
Q: Okay.
Did you take anything or just your two shoes... you just went down to the
airport and...
L: Just
went there...
Q: And they
told you to get on the airplane and...
L: Well,
no, that was what part of the time was at EG&G... they said your job's
going to take place mainly at a remote area up within the confines of a test
site... you'll go up there and we'll show you around... it didn't seem like
anything unusual to me.
Q: Were you
the only person who was giving that little briefing?
L: Yeah,
there was no... Dennis came with me. That was the first meeting...
Q: You and
Dennis and the person giving you the briefing?
L: Right.
Q: And you
and Dennis got on the airplane and there were some others on the airplane?
L: Right.
Q: Okay. Now,
that was the second time you were with Dennis?
L: Right.
Aside from the big interview... that was the first time I went anywhere with
Dennis. People visiting... Tracy's not pregnant.
DECEMBER
11, 1988
Fireworks
show... in the middle of December.
G: An
unusual fireworks show.
L: Boy,
that's odd.
G: But
that's true... because remember you and Tracy and I went up on one (UNCLEAR)...
so you were preparing for something, but I don't know what it was.
DECEMBER
14, 1988
L: Black
and white Groom Lake photo done. I think this is when I blew up a photo of
Groom Lake to see...
G: That was
that old photo of Groom Lake from the '60's or something... wasn't it?
L: Right...
I had just gotten back from there about a week ago...
Q: And you
wanted to see what?
L: If it had
changed...
Q: Well, it
sounds to me like you were interested in seeing where you were up there?
L: Right.
Q: Where
did that photograph come from that you blew up? That negative?
L: Where
did that come from?
Q: That's
okay... that's interesting... so you were in the darkroom taking a look at
where you were.
G: I think
you made a negative from another photo and enlarged that negative of that
photo... you know what I mean... I don't think you had access to a negative...
L: No...
G: I think
we had gotten another picture from somewhere and he made a negative and then
enlarged that...
L: I was
trying to look for the building that I went in...
Q: Okay.
Was it there?
L: I
couldn't tell. It was just too big.
Q: When you
got off the airplane up there, what did they do... did they just drop you on an
airstrip and you walk off into a receiving area...
L: No...
there's like a little electric... not a golf cart thing... but one that seats
several people... like a tour bus type of thing... but all open and that just
takes you from the strip to the last couple of buildings on the end...
Q: People
get off at different points...
L: No, they
all pile on that and you go into this big cafeteria type area...
Q: Where
there machines that... candy machines...
L: Yeah...
there were machines, but there's also a buffet type thing.
DECEMBER
20, 1988
L: The
Alpha Probe Contract was renewed on the 20th. Tracy's dad visits on the 23rd...
her sister comes in on the 26th... Robin... this is when, now that I have my
job, I'm training Wayne's wife, 'cause Tracy decided she no longer wanted to do
photos... training Wayne's wife how to do photos... so...
DECEMBER
26-30, 1988
L: Within
the 26th through the 30th is when Thigpen showed up. Cause Robin was here and
so was Kris... Robin and Kris were here the day Thigpen showed up... so within
those five days is when Thigpen showed up and before this... somewhere... was
another surprise visit from those guys that was never recorded.
Q: Before
Thigpen.
L: Right.
G: You
already know Thigpen was with the OFI, right?
Q: No, you
say OFI... I'm familiar with the OSI... but what is the OFI?
G: The
Office of Federal Investigations... which is not something you can look up in
the phonebook... it's not a public access like the FBI or CIA... and I'm not
totally... George Knapp might be able to help you out a little more there...
but they apparently... they do background checks for people that need
clearance... they do the background checks and they are a division of the
Office of Personnel Management... OPM... which is headquartered in
Pennsylvania... and OFI is something almost nobody's ever heard of...
Q: I had
never heard of them... background investigations that I was familiar with were
done by the Defense Investigative Service... DIS... and sometimes the FBI would
get involved... so this is a new one for me and OSI... is Office of Special
Investigations...
G: This was
definitely OFI... they have an office here in town...
L: Yeah,
George Knapp managed to track them down...
G: And he
had written down the name of Mike Thigpen and a phone number and gave it to me
and I lost the piece of paper, but I remembered Thigpen's name... I told George
Knapp... George Knapp found out Thigpen worked for the OFI... we then told
Knapp, because we didn't have the phone number, that John Andrews, of Testor,
the one doing the disc... John is kind of a hub for a lot of information...
John found out that it was the OFI here in town and that they were a division
of the Office of Personnel Management in Pennsylvania and gave us the number of
Thigpen and his boss' name and... John Andrews was also the guy... we were
talking about John Lear before, just to let you know how Andrews fits in and
the background... is even... by the time we ever heard of Lear... and Lear had
already gone off the deep end... he was probably right about the deep end,
actually, but, anyway, Lear, himself, in the mid-'80's, I guess, was a
disbeliever and kind of pooh-poohing UFO's and John Andrews is the guy who
scooped in the models for the Stealth Fighter and the SR71 and U2 and these
guys were always out trying to glance glimpses of it, proto-type aircraft, and
Andrews knew Lear from somewhere... and Andrews heard Lear making fun of that
and said, hey, there's something to this and you ought to check it out. And John
Andrews was actually the guy that got John Lear on the trail and Andrews,
subsequently, he wanted the disc model to be his coup de grace and he wanted to
do this and then retire...
L: I never
knew that.
JANUARY 1,
1989
Q: I
appreciate you chiming in like this...
L: I'm
already calling you GUFON, here... and right up there, you're Gene... so...
G: 'Cause I
had been reading all that UFO stuff.
L: Yeah...
I told them the GUFON...
G: Okay...
we were just making fun of MUFON...
L: So
before this... before January 1st is when they came in with the transcript to
the door... with a conversation between Gene and I and had outlined various
things we were talking about... I thought that happened much further on... but
it must have happened...
G: Are you
sure you're not thinking of the one with Jim... because they did one with Jim
before the one with you and I.
L: Huh?
G: I
thought that's how I remembered it... the first time...
L: What's
screwing me up is I purposely wrote stuff out of order on here...
G: Yeah...
he's stealth himself...
L: But it's
not suppose to backfire on me...
G: But I
remember them questioning you about a conversation with you and Jim... 'cause
Jim was working up at TTR and the... Slim Jim... all that stuff... calling Slim
Jim...
L: Right...
oh, right.
G: That
happened before you and I.
L: I forgot
all about that.
Q: What
happened there?
L: It was
almost an identical situation that happened to Gene and again they came in and,
at that time, now Jim and I are talking cause he's working up at Tonapa...
that's a secure area... and I'm working where I am... and we say very little on
the phone, because Jim is working on his clearance and I really don't remember
how the conversation got started, but it was, again, I think it was the use of
a nickname, right...
G: I wasn't
involved in that... I just remember talking about it...
L: That got
it started and I never did call him Jim during the conversation and that
brought them right over to the house afterwards.
Q: So they
came over with the transcript?
L: Yeah.
Q: And
said, who were you talking to and what is this about?
L: Right...
who's the guy, Slim, I think is what was said...
G: You guys
might have chirped on the phone...
L: Boy,
yeah, that makes a lot of sense...
Q: What?
G: I don't
even know where it...
L: I have
no idea how it started... this is years ago... because Jim and I have known
each other for a long time, but, when Jim called... or if I called there and
Vicky answered the phone... instead of saying, hi, hello... he always makes a
bird chirp noise and I do the same thing.
G: You know
how people do stupid things... when they chirped to each other... instead of
saying hi, this is Bob...
L: Oh, I
know exactly what it was... we did something like that and said something
like... what's up Slim... and then it was... nothing I can talk about on the
phone... remember that? And he said, okay, I'll see you later. So, they came
over right away thinking that this was a plan to set up a meeting between us
two and exchange information in person.
Q: Now, you
had been to Trip to Nowhere one time...
L: No, no... I've gone there twice...
Q: So,
you've been up there twice... so you've actually been to S4?
L: Yeah,
now I was already at S4 when...
Q: When
they came over with the transcript... the chirp script...
G: What did
you go to S4 twice in December, right?
L: No... S4
once... Groom Lake once.
G: Oh...
okay.
L: And I
went before Christmas. So before the 23rd...
G: Because
they broke for Christmas, didn't they...
L: Yes,
before the 23rd is the second trip there and I don't know where that occurred.
Q: Did the
fellows with the transcript come over before Thigpen or after? Or do you
remember?
L: The
fellows with the transcript came over after Thigpen... that's why this would
make a lot more sense if this was Jim... this calendar's doing exactly the
opposite of what it's suppose to...
Q:
Confusing the enemy...
L: Right...
whatever it is it's effective... anyway, you know about those events and they
did occur and they occurred after January 1st.
Q: Now, if
they're going to shut down... aerospace and defense companies normally shut
down for that entire week... did they? From Christmas until New Years? You
know... the whole government operations... being dead in the water...
L: Okay...
hold on... no... cause this is the day...
JANUARY
7th, 1989
L: Okay,
no, that's right... that's right... and this is the day that they had done the
allergen test up here...
Q: The
allergen test was the 23rd of December?
L: Well,
I'm saying before that date... I went on the second trip to S4... where I drank
the pine fluid and here it is the 7th when I said there was lots of blood in my
urine and I collapsed... and so on and so forth... and on the following Monday
I went to the doctor.
(PHONE
RINGS. MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON.)
JANUARY
9th, 1989
Q: Let me
repeat that... that was the 9th of January and that's when you went to the
doctor and you got a shot of Demerol and what happened?
G: Well, it
was just fine because I called and he was high... he had never done any drugs
in his whole life and I gave him a shot of Demerol and he was slurring his
words and everything and I didn't know what was wrong.
(START OF
TAPE 6 -- SIDE B)
JANUARY 12,
1989
L: That
looks like a trip to Los Alamos on the 12th of January.
Q: Is this
probe related?
L: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
L: Leaving
the next day. Buy the first 6" shell on Sunday.
JANUARY 16,
1989
L: Work at
4pm -- here's another trip.
Q: Okay,
that's 16 -- January.
L: Right.
Now Lear is written at the top here and I don't know why -- looks like it was
written in after the date was written, but I can't be sure.
Q: Just so
that you're anchoring with regards to these trips... is this a trip in which
you were exposed to files?
L: Oh,
yeah, all of them were.
Q: Okay.
L:
Unfortunately, they're not all going to be listed here... and
Q: Is this
a trip in which you... had you seen the spacecraft... the disc? At this point.
L: At this
point, yes, probably so.
Q: Okay.
L: Yes,
because we had one... this is probably the first time I saw it.
Q: 16,
January.
L: Right.
Sitting outside... because this would have been the third trip there... and I
remember the third trip was when I came in the side entrance.
G: And you
started acting a lot more secretive and wierd in January...
Q: Now,
Gene, how did he start to act... secretive and wierd... give me an example...
G: He
compartmentalizes information, anyway... he wasn't paranoid in the classic
sense of the word... but, he wouldn't talk about anything that even skirted the
issue... I mean, there's nothing wrong with one of your friends saying, how's
your new job. But, it would be a big deal to him.
Q: You
asked him... what did he say?
G: Probably
in sign (?)... you know, something unbelievable... some dirty (?) answer...
but, I mean, but he had worked at Los Alamos... he worked on secret things
before... so, you would just think that he's working on something he can't talk
about... you wouldn't go... well, I bet he's working on flying saucers... but,
he was a little more defensive than you would think he would be if he was
working on some type of bomb or missile, which the average person wouldn't care
about anyway... or understand... he was a little defensive and you got the...
my perception from his attitude was... let's just stay off that subject... and
then he'd also talk... not about the job... but about the security check... I
mean, I knew Thigpen had come by and these guys would drop by his house and so,
in all probability, his phone was tapped and who knew if they had come back or
whatever... so, it was... you just couldn't talk about it... you could make
small talk about anything, except anything about what he'd been up to lately as
far as his new job. And it's a strange job... he gets a job and he's leaving at
four in the evening and coming home at random times at night...
Q: What did
you think about that? Did you comment to anybody that this was kind of a wierd
situation?
G: No,
because I didn't really know enough about... I'm not a scientist, or anything,
I've never worked in a scientific program, or a government program, and that
could be normal. A lot of people here... for instance guys... there're a lot of
people working at the test site here in town and the test site will provide
small studio type apartments for these guys so they can pay some nominal fee
and go up and stay all week, rather than take a bus out and back every day and
be beat at the end of the week. A lot of guys without kids... or single guys...
I think it was something crazy like seven bucks a day or eleven bucks a day or
something to rent these apartments and stay up there all week... so that type
of activity isn't unusual.
Q: January
16th... now you said something about coming in the side door and you saw it
outside or something...
L: Coming
in the hangar door instead of going around the back into the office entrance...
Q: Okay.
L: Umm...
Q: That's
the time when you really thought it was something we were building...
(DOORBELL
RINGS.)
L: Right.
(MACHINE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
JANUARY 19,
1989
L: Another
Los Alamos trip on the 19th... stayed at my friend Joe's out there.
Q: You and
Joe talk about what... anything about your new job? Did he know you had a new
job?
L: Yeah...
I think... no... he knew I had a new job... and I was still just being
secretive about everything.
Q: Okay.
Now... critical point... you've seen a disc... you are reading files... have
the files, at this point, indicated to you that that disc isn't one of ours...
L: Yes.
Q: So, at
this point you really know that...
L: Oh,
yeah, I know what's going on now.
Q: Okay.
JANUARY 24,
1989
L: And, in
fact, when I get back from Los Alamos on the 24th... I go out again...
Q: 24th...
of January.
L: Right.
Q: Okay. Is
that always listed as "Trip to Nowhere"?
L: No...
it's "go to work" here... "go to work" back here... my
birthday's on the 26th...
JANUARY 26,
1989
Q: What did
you do on your birthday?
L: Went out
with GUFON and his wife to Alpine Village... a Swedish restaurant... that was
the first time I ate rabbit, I think.
G: Or was
it duck?
L: No, rabbit.
JANUARY 28,
1989
L: Tracy's
sister comes out.
Q: Tracy's
sister's name is...
L: Kris...
Q: Kris...
and this is... she's studying to be a lawyer.
L: Right.
G: She
switched vocations, didn't she... she was going to take Japanese or Chinese or
be an interpreter... or was it a Chinese speaking lawyer...?
L: Who
knows.
G: She was
a nut, though. I don't think she ever did anything, do you?
L: I don't
know. By the way, just a side question here, don't they, if they're... I
imagine Tracy's got to be part of the screenplay in some respect...
Q: Um
hmm... but real or in a fictional scene... it depends on how we eventually work
it out... because what you may want to say is... I don't really want this is
there like that... because it has to do with my private life... let's just
fictionalize this person...
L: Well,
that's what I was wondering was if they're going to be represented in a movie,
don't you need their permission? Because the last time Guber Peters asked
her... she said no.
(MACHINE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
L: Well,
however, that's going to be... it's going to be difficult to get her permission
for anything.
FEBRUARY
1989
Q: Now
where are you making... where are you manufacturing the probes at this point?
L: Los
Alamos.
Q: You're
doing it all there.
L: In a
friend's house, yeah.
Q: Okay.
G: You
didn't shave your beard off until February?
L: Yeah, I
was shocked... that's the most shocking thing...
G: I
thought you shaved your beard off when you went to the EG&G interview...
because you were looking very business-like.
L: That's
certainly nothing I would have purposely put somewhere else... that's really
strange. I wonder what prompted me to do that?
G: Here's
another thing for the missing days there, when he just put an 'X" in it
and didn't write that he went to work... keep in mind now the security guys are
dropping by randomly and can look at his calendar... so he can't put down...
worked at S4...
Q: Now,
Bob, when you're doing this calendar... was there any particular reason for
having done a calendar like this?
L: Oh, I'd
done it for years... I got in that habit all the way back... I've got... I
think I've got fifteen years of calendars... it's just total, complete habit...
I can't not do it... it's cause I've got such a terrible memory, it's the only
thing were I can... and it saved me a lot of times... on different things...
when did I get insurance and so on and so forth... there's always been one up
somewhere. So, it's habit, I guess.
G: Aren't
there just big blotches of days where you just "X" out days and don't
write anything... any of those can be work days?
L: Yeah, I
was just looking for something that might look... There's nothing in
February... well, I went to work in there somewhere. Where I don't know... I
don't see anything...
Q: Once a
week?
L: No, not
always... there should have been a couple of trips during that month.
Q: Okay.
You're in the lab now?
L: Umm hmm.
Q: Gene,
are you noticing a change in his behavior as he gets deeper and deeper into
this program?
G: Yeah,
that he wasn't any fun anymore.
(LAUGHTER)
G: I mean
he really wasn't. I mean we have fun now, even after he told us... even
after... you know, it's easy to relax and make fun and have laughs about things
in the past, but at that time it was a (UNCLEAR)... because Bob wouldn't talk
about anything, he would be very abrupt and discreet on the phone because he
presumed they were listening to him... and he was right, you know... and, so,
you couldn't hardly talk about anything and it was just kind of a drag.
L: Okay...
Q: How
often did you see him... once a week... twice a week?
G: About
once. His photo lab was still doing the photos... so he was involved with
that... but later I see him five days a week, sometimes... but, you know, there
were other things going on... remember, we were... that's when we got the small
business innovative research program... which is a big government (UNCLEAR) by
different agencies for companies of 400 people or less... they put up funding
and they need innovative research in different levels... level 1, 2, 3... for
instance, the guys who fly the F15's or this or that, they need a cooling
system to go inside their flight suits to keep them cool... for instance if
it's level three, you can get all the information, they go... here's where
we're at and here's where our problem is... what is your idea to solve it and,
if you come up with some ideas, then they'll fund... give you money... and
then, if you further the idea, make a working model, they can be
manufactured... like even the defense contract can buy it from you... and this
is to keep all the big, giant companies from getting all the business.
MARCH 22,
1989
L: March
22nd I have written down -- "go to there"... now, I have a feeling
that that wasn't a trip to work. Because on the...
MARCH 29,
1989
L: Jim,
GUFON and Jackie go fishing...
G: ...
which is... fishing is Groom Lake...
L: Right.
So "go to there"...
Q: Wait a
minute, fishing is Groom Lake... tell me that a different way... when, you
say...
L: "Go
fishing" is the code meaning...
G: Groom
Lake is the drylake bed... Area 51... so "going fishing" was when he
took us up to...
L: When I
knew the test schedule...
Q: So, this
is a Wednesday...
L: Oh,
yeah, it is a Wednesday... and this is a Wednesday, too... good point... so
these are two dates when we're out spying...
Q: Okay,
what are the dates?
L: Wednesday
the 22nd of March and Wednesday the 29th of March. Now the 22nd of March
must've been the first time that we ever went.
G: My son
was born March 15th and I had a little baby and my in-laws were still in
town... so here's the whole family at the house and Bob and his wife drop by
and...
Q: Now, you
didn't know anything about this before...
G: Oh,
yeah, he had told us now...
Q: Okay,
wait... step me back... to the first time he comes to tell you.
G: I don't
know what date it was but we were driving down Alta Street in my car and I
don't know where we were going and I said something... I said, you don't think
my car's bugged, do you? He said, no, I said, well...
Q: Why'd
you say that?
G: Well,
because I knew about the security check, I knew he was generally paranoid, I
knew whatever he was doing at work, he wouldn't talk about... and I said, you
ever going to tell me what you're doing at work... because I thought he would
if he got a chance... and that's when he told me he was working on this disc...
Q: What did
he say?
G: He
said... "they've got 'em."
L: That's
right.
G: Now, I
had seen programs with John Lear and stuff on TV saying there were flying
saucers out there... but I didn't necessarily believe him...
Q: So he
said, "they've got 'em."
G:
"They've got 'em."
Q: Did you
know...
G: I knew
right away... they've got flying saucers that're called discs and he proceeded
to tell me about them and I was shocked...
Q: What did
you feel when he said "they've got 'em"?
G:
Exhilarated, because I knew then... now in hindsight... it was dominos all the
way down the line... this is why his personality changed... in other words, the
personality changes and his activities now made sense and, also, it reinforced,
even at this point, that I knew this guy was telling the truth... because, even
if it's your friend, you've got to be apprehensive... I mean this changes
everything... this means everything... and he told me that they had 'em... they
had discs... they had nine of them... there were nine hangars... he was in the
lab... he told me there were all different shapes... one was a Sportsmodel...
Q: This is
as you're driving down the street?
G: Yeah...
we're driving down the street and then he also told me... I remember... that
the one looked like they had put it up on the edge and shot a projectile
through it... because there was a hole in it as though they had tested the
skin's integrity and that's when he first started teaching me about space/time
distortion, because I said, well, maybe they shot it down... because remember
now I'm reflecting on bullshit that I've heard John Lear and others say on
television and read in Omni and things like that... and he explained space/time
distortion and how impractical it would be that any jet fighter of ours could
ever catch one of those things... much less get a missle to shoot through it.
Q: Where
were you going in the car?
G: I don't
know.
Q: What did
you say when you got home?
L: Did you
tell Mary when you got home?
G: I don't
think I told her at first, cause you told me not to tell anybody and stuff like
that and I knew I couldn't trust her to not accidentally act like she knew if
we were out...
Q: So when
did you tell her?
G: When did
I tell her?
Q: Do you
remember?
G: After
the baby was born. Because remember now... she gave birth on March 15th and...
though she's not very Catholic anymore, she was raised Catholic and would be
more reluctant...
Q: How did
you tell her?
G: I just
told her... once I knew he had told Jim... now, remember, after he told me, I
didn't know if he told Jim... you know what I mean, in other words...
Q: But he
hadn't.
G: I don't
know... maybe he had... although I'm friends with Jim, we don't call each other
and hang out together. He and Bob have that relationship. So once I knew Jim
knew, however I knew that, I told Mary and she was thrilled... But she had seen
all the Lear stuff and everything on TV and I had been an open-minded guy to
this, I mean from "Journey to the Gods" back in the mid-70's and all
of that stuff... so we certainly entertained the possibility and, remember,
Lear was a pretty convincing guy. He was throwing around CIA headquarters and
Jackie Gleason and Richard Nixon and Jackie Gleason apparently had a house that
was shaped like a disc and had one of the biggest occult libraries of anybody
in the world... so these were Learonyms... these were believable stories and so
we were pretty open-minded about the possibility... we were actually amazed
that we knew somebody who got into the program.
Q: So, the
baby's born and then Bob says, do you want to come out and see a test flight?
L: That was
seven days afterwards.
G: Well,
about five days afterwards, or something, and again, he had already told us at
this point, I knew what he was working on and stuff, and I started reading...
getting books... I appraised Lear's house in exchange to get a bunch of tapes
from Lear... all kinds of UFO information, which were taped terribly, but was
really good. It was all kinds of UFO stuff and, so anyway, what had happened
was, we couldn't speak in Bob's house, so we went out in the driveway and, this
was after they didn't call him to work for a few weeks, I guess, so I told him
I was reading about all this UFO information and they talk about the Roswell
crash in '47 and the alledged Russian landings in the '50's and the (UNCLEAR)
in the '60's and I said, well, if all this is going on... there must be
something going on somewhere now... if there are aliens here and they're flying
around and whatever there venue is... they must be here now... that's where I want
to be. And he said... what are you doing Wednesday night.
L: That's
right. That's exactly right.
G: I said,
what did you have in mind. And then he tells me. That he knows the disc
schedule and stuff and he's going to take us out there then to watch the disc...
which was one of the most thrilling...
Q: Tell me
about this... there was the three of you... this was the first time...
L: It was
Jim, also.
Q: Oh,
Jim... wasn't Jim up at Tonapa...
L: Yeah,
but he came down sporadically...
G: He'd
have to work five and seven day stretches, but it wasn't always Monday through
Friday...
L: Right.
So it was me, Gene, Jim and Tracy. Right? I have to check it with you. No, no,
no... that was the second time... the first night was...
G: Lear...
no, Lear was the last night.
L: I know
you and I were there... it must have been Lear, because we had the telescope...
G: Yeah, we
invited Lear, because Lear's got an eight inch Selectron (sp?) and he knew, I
didn't know... I'd never been out there, but he knew we were going to be a long
way away... over a mountain range and so we had met Lear by then and Lear had a
telescope and it was me, you, Lear and Tracy.
L: Okay.
Q: What
car?
G: It was
Lear's RV.
L: Okay.
Q: You're
driving up there. Everybody was... was this light-hearted conversation... was
this deadly serious... were you afraid?
L: I
remember...
G: Here's a
guy telling me I'm going to get to see an extraterrestrial vehicle tested...
you know...
L: And, as
we're coming up the mountain, which goes down... now the thing is going to take
off... I forget at what time... 9:15 or 8:15... we're coming up the hill and
the transmission gives out on the motor home and we're stuck in the middle of
the road on a hill in the middle of the desert...
G: So I
hitchhike with a guy coming from either Area 51 or (UNCLEAR), I get in his
truck and he's going to take me all the way down the hill to get some
transmission fluid at the gas station down there... and on the way down, and
this guy's drinking beer, you know, guys drive through central Nevada and they
pick up a six-pack for safe driving on the way home... and we're going down and
I start talking with his guy about Area 51 and, though he wouldn't really open
up, he was a complete stranger, he (UNCLEAR) working at Area 51 and that you do
have to get clearance to get anywhere in there and he had worked with a man who
had had a heart attack and they called an ambulance and the ambulance didn't
have clearance to get inside the gate... so they had to bring the guy from
inside there to the gate and it took too long and the guy died... and had he
gotten to the ambulance he would have lived... but just by virture of security
clearance, they held the ambulance at the gate and made the guy be brought out
to the gate and the guy died... this is the story from this complete stranger.
He takes me down there to get transmission fluid... I buy him another six-pack
of beer to thank him and he takes me back out...
Q: Oh, he
drove you back up?
G: He drove
me back up... I was going to have to hitchhike back up again...
Q: So you
were still going up the grade... and is this on the way to what is now Alien
Inn?
G: No...
Alie-Inn is past there... it's thirty miles past there...
L: Actually
that heart attack story I thought came from Dennis... but it didn't... now I remember
where the origin of that story was...
G: Oh,
yeah...
Q: So you
get the transmission fluid back in...
G: We go
back up, we put the transmission fluid in... we turn out the lights... sneak
down the road... set up the telescope...
Q: This was
a paved road, though?
L: No, dirt
road.
G: Gravel
road.
L: While
you're talking, let me just try and find "The Day After" on tape...
Q: Gene...
tie this one off for me... you went up, parked, set up the telescope... what
happened?
G: Well,
after dark, a light appeared up in the sky... started jumping around... pretty
thrilling... now, listen, it was really thrilling that day... but the reason
I'm playing it down was because the next week, when Jim was with us... not
Lear...
Q: What did
Lear say when he saw the light?
G: He knew
it.
L: He was
excited...
G: He knew
they were out there... it just confirmed it.
L: It was
more like... "I told you."
G: Right.
Q: Now, you
were looking at it through the telescope?
L: No, I
wasn't... because I thought I'd let them see what was going on.
G: Yeah, we
got to see it through a telescope and it was still far away through the
telescope... you could see an elliptical light and it jumped around and danced
around in the air...
Q: Could
you see it with the naked eye?
G: Oh,
yeah, you could. When we got the best shot of it... Lear got his eye on the
eyepiece... and when we got the best shot of it... he's getting out of the way
and he kicks the tripod and moves the telescope. And, if you think it's easy,
it is tough to get that thing on that telescope... and the next week...
L: We
really hated him...
G: Yeah, we
really hated him after that.
Q: It was
approximately how many miles away?
L:
Thirteen, I would guess.
Q: Okay.
G: But the
next week, we rented a Lincoln, because we all had small cars and...
Q: Now this
is the second time?
G: This is
the second time.
L: Which
was on...
G: April
29th...
L: No,
wait... March...
G: March
29th...
Q: Now,
were you excited that week, knowing that the next week you were going to go out
and look at this again?
G: I felt
so privileged... I felt like the luckiest son of a bitch in the world... he's a
physicist and was in the program and stuff... I'm getting this free of
charge... nobody wants to kill me... I realized how lucky we all were... as a
writer, don't you feel fortunate to jump on... this is the best story...
imagine if Jesus was here... it's got... infidelity... it's got government
cover-up... it's got... isn't this great?
(LAUGHTER)
Q: You're
in the Lincoln... take me out...
G: Okay, we
rent a Lincoln cause we've all got small cars...
Q: Who
signed on the dotted line for the Lincoln?
G: I did...
I was the only one who had a charge card I think...
L: No, no,
no, wait... wasn't that Kristin...
G: No...
L: He
remembers better than I do...
G: There
was a Lincoln... I rented it... Budget Rent A Car and so Jim and I... we're
going up... Jim and I are in the front... Bob and Tracy are in the back...
Bob's got a video camera... I think Bob was also explaining space/time
distortion to Tracy in the back seat, if I remember right and the funny thing
was, we're going up and Jim's looking out the window and it looks like these
two F15's are following us. And Jim's looking out the window and we said,
what're you looking at and he says, I know this is an optical illusion but it
seems like these F15's are folllowing us... as though we'd be important
enough... and, so as a joke, I said, that's okay, I'll get rid of them, I've
seen 'Top Gun" and I started backing the car... back and forth on the
highway...
L: He did
that...
G: But then
we got up there... we got up and turned the lights out... we snuck down the
road and waited about...
Q: Same
place... you're going to the same place.
G: About
four and a half...
Q: Now,
you've got no telescope this time...
G: Yeah,
we've got a telescope... it's a small telescope, video camera, which is what I
think he's cueing up there... yeah, this is the actual sound from that night,
isn't it?
L: Yeah,
this is the whole thing... I even have the tape of us in the car, joking
around.
Q: Who's
running the camera? Bob, are you running the camera?
G: Yeah.
He's in the back seat...
L:
Probably, yeah.
G: He and
Tracy are in the back seat. So, anyway, we went down the road to the same
place... we set up the telescope and stuff and Bob is screwing with the
telescope, because the mountain and the skies are starting to blend together,
it's getting dark, and I can't see shit.
Q: Now, are
you just kind of standing there? Are you drinking beer? Or...
G: I'm sure
Jim was drinking beer.
L: Jim
always drinks beer.
G: We were
probably drinking soft drinks, or something. Not that I'm opposed to beer, but
I wouldn't have been drinking it then, because I would have had to work the
next morning. So then, Bob is screwing around with the telescope and video
camera... Jim's looking through binoculars... no, he's screwing with the
telescope, Tracy's on the video camera... cause we know where to look now... we
had seen this thing before... but Jim hadn't... Jim's looking with
binoculars...
Q: It came
up over the top of the mountain...
G: So we're
looking around and, without looking exactly at it, a small light passed above
the mountains and I go, Bob, look at that. And he goes... that's probably just
a star. Period. That's generally the place it pops up in the sky. It's not
moving or anything... so he goes back to the telescope... and so then I'm just
looking with binoculars, watching it... now Cereus jumps up and jumps three or
four, five miles to the west. And Jim says, holy shit, did you see that? And I
said, hey, Bob... and he said, what, and I said, Cereus just jumped about three
miles to the west and he looked up and that was the night... it jumped up and
did the step moves all around and, even though all of this is in hindsight now,
it's still very hard to believe it happened, but it did. It came so far up the
mountain range toward us and glowed so brightly, again we left the trunk of the
Lincoln open, because we got the telescope and everything out of there... and
we actually backed up to get behind the trunk. Now, as I reflect back on that,
it's hard to believe...
Q: It was
just a light.
G: Right,
but it glowed so brightly... I think your mind can only take so much before it
starts an explosion... in other words, whatever your mind's eye is used to
seeing, it's hard to describe, when this thing came down the mountain range...
it's not as though it's a car on the highway or a train on the railroad track
approaching you and you say, yeah, it'll be here in a few minutes, it'll be
there and you'll say something to somebody and turn around and it's a lot
closer and you didn't see it come and you might blink and it's a lot closer...
I guess that's by virtue of the way it travels... and it's alarming cause you
don't see it coming... you can't judge it... it's like boom... boom... it's
actually that fast... and, according to Bob's information, the more highly
energized it is, the more brightly it glows... the more of a charge you're
going to see around the disc and so when it dropped down near to where we were,
it was glowing so brightly, it was like a small sun...
Q: Was it
illuminating the car?
(PHONE
RINGS. MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
Q: So you
stepped back behind the car?
G: We
stepped back behind the trunk and the thing glowed back down...
Q: What did
Jim say?
L: Oh, look,
this is April 5th.
G: That's
the final night when we got busted without seeing any disc...
L: Okay,
that's the car that she rented then.
G: That's
the car she rented.
L: I had
the two days blended together.
Q: What did
Jim say when he saw the disc coming towards you?
G: Well,
you can probably hear it if he finds...
L: No, this
is the third night... Well, you can finish the second night and when the third
night comes up, we've got the tape.
G: What did
Jim say... "holy shit!"
L: Right.
G: Jim's
not a man of many words... he wouldn't say a big soliloquy about it.
Q: No,
Jim's got a clearance... Jim's worked...
L: No, he
never did get his clearance...
Q: Ah...
L: But he
was working on it...
G: Because
he knew Bob Lazar.
L: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
G: But that
was a thrilling night. That was the best night we ever got.
Q: So the
disc left.
G: The disc
went back down the mountain range... did a few more moves... sat there right
above the mountain where it came up and then very slowly just went right back
down... the show's over...
Q: Five
minutes, roughly... three minutes...
G: I don't
know... I was thrilled and I wasn't... It was the longest one I saw... it was
minutes... it wasn't just a few seconds.
Q: You
drove back... what did anybody say in the car when you drove back? Was it
quiet, was it noisy?
G: It was
noisy... although, it's a drive from hell on the way home when it's dark, so it
gets quiet cause everybody's falling asleep. But I was thrilled. I think Jim
and I were... we were in the front seat... we had music on... I don't even know
what Tracy and Bob...
Q: Bob, did
anybody tell you that you should tell more people that night?
L: I don't
remember. I actually remember very little about that night. Other than just the
major events.
G: Now,
listen, he's not kicked out of the program yet... so, everybody who knows him
knows how ludicrous it would be... in other words, you were thankful that Bob
let you in... you would never go... why don't we bring all of us inside... you
were thrilled to be... honored... to be in that group and nobody would have
suggested that... because his life and security clearance and everything else
were really on the line.
Q: So you
drove back. That was the...
L: That was
the 29th.
Q: What
happens in the next few days before the next test flight. Anything?
G: Well,
Kris comes to town... that's one thing.
APRIL 4th,
1989
L: Kris
comes to town on the 4th. Oh here it is...
APRIL 5th,
1989
L:
"Bad day at Groom" is what's written on the 5th. So that's the day we
got caught. And here it is...
APRIL 6th,
1989
L:
Debriefing on the 6th.
Q: That's
Indian Springs. Let's take a look at that day at Groom.
[VIDEO TAPE
OF THE 3RD VISIT TO GROOM LAKE BEGINS TO RUN IN THE B.G. A BIT HARD AT TIMES TO
DISTINGUISH INTERVIEW FROM THAT B.G. DIALOGUE.]
Q: So who's
in the car now?
L: This is
Kris driving. There's John Lear. No, you didn't want John to come.
G: We never
wanted John to come. He was too big an asshole. He acts like he's in charge.
How this happened was... you know the tests ran on a regular basis and Lear
called and wanted to go up to Groom and Bob goes, Nah, I don't think we're
going to go tonight... and blows him off and Lear says, well, I'm going out
there anyway and so Bob calls me and says...
L: Didn't
he just show up in front of the house?
G: He might
have called you from his cellphone... I remember that you did call me and I
go... well, I don't know... cause Lear and I never got along terribly well...
so Lear shows up within twenty minutes...
[GENE AND
BOB SPEAKING SIMULTANEOUSLY]
L: There's
everyone there... that's Tracy there...
G: There's
a car rented... and Lear doesn't even think for a second that he wasn't invited
he thinks that in twenty minutes we ran out, rented a car, and got ready to go
to Groom Lake.
L: Tracy's
standing on the center line saying, here comes a car. We're trying to decide on
the best vantage point.
Q: It's a
paved highway.
L: Yeah,
this is the highway, we haven't taken the road down there yet.
Q: What
does his hat say?
L: Special
Forces or something.
G: That's
John Lear with a regular .35 mm camera... he's going to take a picture of a
light in the sky fifteen miles away.
Q: Let me
ask Gene about that... we actually talked about that quite at length. Gene,
tell me from your perspective what happened that night? About when you were
caught.
G: Actually
what happened was we were up there... you saw us there... we were looking over
the valley... now, what that didn't show, was there all kinds of four-wheel
drive vehicles sweeping the road.
Q: Sweeping
the dirt road.
G: These
are dirt roads that ranchers can use to go in and get their cattle, cause this
is open range. But all the security vehicles were sweeping these roads to make
sure no one was on them.
Q: Now, you
knew they were security vehicles?
L: Right.
We were waiting for them to disappear.
G: That's
what we could see through those binoculars, although it wasn't on any of the
video. We could see what kind of vehicles they were. Besides the ranchers drive
old trucks with big trailers on them.
Q: So you
were waiting for them to leave.
G: Get done
in the area and then once it started getting dark with no lights on, we
snuck... no, did you get out of the car first?
L: No...
that was the story... that was the story we had talked about on the phone. If
anyone asks, I got out at the... that was the stop sign story...
G: We go
down the road and we're going further and further and we're deciding well,
should we stop here, no... let's go in further... no lights on or anything and
eventually, I don't know why, Kris hit the brakes...
L: No, we
stopped by slamming into park... but we forgot that when we opened the door the
dome light goes on...
G: That's
right... that's right. Yeah, because we were going to try to sneak out and she
hit the brakes on the way out. But anyway, the dome light comes on so and I
guess it's dark now...
L: Yeah,
cause when the dome light came on...
G: The dome
light comes on and Blazers and Broncos start coming out from the security base
out there all over the roads... and you can see dust kicking up in the air and all
these vehicles running all over the place. And this is when you got out, isn't
it?
L: We
actually drove up the road a bit and saw that they were already up in front of
us...
G: Right
because they had gone up the other road and gone to the highway and they're
coming on the highway and there's no way we can beat them to the highway... so
we were going up the road and we were going to try and sneak out... but Tracy
had to hit the brakes a few times... and then once... now they've got
headlights on... he gets out and takes the gun in case of rattlesnakes cause he
can't get caught with us. We go further up the road... oh, that's it... now,
he's out... he's going over and hiding in the desert... we look up the road and
the security vehicles behind us stop, so we stop... cause they aren't going to
chase us... we aren't going to leave... and so then they start up again and we
start up again... and then we stop because they've got us in both directions...
interesting... the two guys that came in the vehicle down from the road were
two Indians... Indian looking guys... I mean, thin, thirty, thirty-five years
old and they were Indians... which I found really strange... cause that's not
Indian reservation...
L: I never
saw that.
Q: But they
were in uniforms?
G: No, no...
they were in plainclothes and they were in a Blazer... I remember it was a
Chevy and they were in a Blazer and they were Indians and the only reason I
thought they were in it was because the guys who came up behind us were in
uniforms and the Indian guys pulled over and the main head guy, who was very
big, muscular guy and bald headed, went over and they spoke... we were just up
the way, but I couldn't hear what they said or anything, but they knew each
other... they were involved in coming around the highway... I don't know... I
don't know... and then there were two vehicles behind us and then the head guy
-- bald headed -- they had automatic weapons, but they saw that we weren't any
threat and they put the automatic weapons back in their vehicles and the bald
headed, big, muscular guy -- the head security guy -- and then another guy, who
was even bigger, like they could have beat the shit out of us... they weren't
worried about having to use weapons on us... and he said, what are you doing
out here. Now genius Lear says, "What did we do, break up a drug bust or
something?" I don't know where that came from, but these guys have machine
guns... we're out here... and so anyway... oh, when we stopped... we stopped
and set up the telescope again real fast... and we said, we're just watching
the stars... so the head guy radioed back and said, they say they're out here
watching the stars... and we didn't hear what the response was, but I'm sure
they said, get 'em out of there. And so he hands us this sheet and says...
L: Oh,
really... this is the first I heard of that.
G: Yeah, he
hands us this sheet and says...
Q: What
sheet?
G: It's a
handout they give showing the Nevada revised statutes regarding that military
installation and, if you enter the military installation, or you are out there
with any... binoculars... video equipment...
L: It's a
crime actually to sketch the mountain range...
G: So,
legally even if you take a picture of the outside of the moutain, they can
charge you a thousand dollar fine and put you in jail for a year. So, he hands
us a sheet of paper saying that... and says, well, whether you know it or not,
there's a military installation on the other side of the mountain range... we
want you to get back up on the highway if you're just watching stars... we
don't know why you're in the middle of Nevada watching stars anyway... cause
the stars can be seen from a lot of places... so Lear says something. I was
quiet, cause I didn't want... Lear says, well, this is (UNCLEAR) land, or
something, and they said, yeah, and we can't force you to get off here, but
we'd prefer that you get back up on the highway. So they got back in their
vehicles and just sat there, waiting for us... So eventually, we went back up
toward the highway and he had moved up in the dark and was going up that way
and so we weren't on the highway, we were up by the highway and Bob came
walking back over, put the gun in the trunk, and we told him what had
happened...
L: Wait,
you're leaving out a good part of the story... about me and you joking
around...
G: Right...
that's what I'm getting to now... and then we started joking about what if we
had guys surrounding the guards... is that what you're talking about?
L: Yeah.
Q: How did
that happen?
L: Well, we
didn't know they were right there...
G: Right.
And we had pulled up by the highway and it's dark now and we don't know they're
there and we start goofing around saying, wouldn't they have been surprised if,
when they pulled up and started out, we had people with guns surrounding them...
and blah, blah, blah, and we're standing there talking and, I don't remember
exactly, I know me and Tracy... did you see the green light drop also...
L: Yeah.
G: Okay...
me and Bob and Tracy are standing there talking and we see a green light back
down the road go... like that... and I guess that's kind of what... those green
scopes... well, apparently, they had been watching us through that and dropped
it and we all saw the green light drop and realized these guys were there, so
they saw Bob come walking back over to the car and then we left and went back
up on the highway and made a left... went towards Alie-Inn cause we were going
to still stay out there... and...
Q: The
Alie-Inn was further down the road?
G: Right.
L: At that
time it was the Rachel Bar and Grill.
Q: It was
further away...
G: From Las
Vegas... right. And we went down there and sat awhile and...
L: What? I
don't remember any of that... I thought we...
G: No, we
went down there in the car... not too far... and we sat on the highway for a
few minutes and decided we weren't going to see anything, whipped a U, and
headed back toward Las Vegas, and, as soon as we did, that's when (UNCLEAR)
pulled us over...
L: Okay, I
thought he was there when we got up to the road...
G: It's not
like we were trying to memorize the situation... so then the cop pulled us
over... Kris is driving. He gets out and tells us... he's not in a very good
mood, and he tells us he's got a problem... and the problem is that when the
security pulled this vehicle over there were four people in it and now he pulls
us over and there are five. Can anybody explain that to him? You got any
weapons in this car? No remember... the guards probably saw him put that gun in
the trunk... got any weapons in this car? Bob says no... So then Kris is the
one who rented this car and he starts asking her... will you give me permission
to search this vehicle... and we couldn't even look at her and give her a
signal or anything, but she was very strong and obstinate and she just said,
no, she would not let them...
L: Well,
she was going to legal school at the time and was really up on it...
G: She
wouldn't let him search the car... so he wanted ID's from all of us and it was
Lear, wasn't it?
L: Oh,
yeah.
G: So he
frisks us... because I had a little bit of bronchial asthma... I didn't hear
him... so he frisked us and asked for ID from everybody... and I didn't have
any ID cause I wasn't driving... so I gave him my social security number and
stuff and Lear, instead of saying, I didn't bring my ID, just like I did before
him... says my ID's in the trunk. So he gets the keys and opens up the trunk
and there's a movie camera and a telescope and binoculars, a Gieger counter,
everything you're not suppose to have is there in the trunk and the Sheriff's looking
at this. And then Lear gives him his ID and so he goes back to the cop car and
we know this, I guess in hindsight, but then... we didn't know that the Sheriff
was in with the security people and he radios all of our names and social
security numbers and he comes back and says... look, I've detained you
fifty-five minutes now, I can only detain you one hour without taking you in...
according to law... so I'm going to let you go, but you're out here outside
this military installation with all this stuff inside your trunk playing hide
and go seek with the guards and stuff and saying you're not up to anything, I
suggest you get out of here and don't let me catch you around here anymore...
so that was it... and we can only...
L: Well,
don't forget... you did leave out a couple points... one was... that had
nothing to do with anything, was right before he said I've detained you for so
long and I'm going to let you go, I was trying to interrupt him talking to that
other cop to tell him we did have a gun in the car...
G: Oh,
that's right... you were going to confess. Yeah, cause we were getting
scared... we did have a gun in the car...
L: Well,
they were going to tow the car... and the tow truck came out...
G: Right...
and so Bob was going to confess, but he let us go and so then, after we got in
the car, and talked about what a big dickhead the Sheriff was... you know,
typical talk about the Sheriff and I remember on the way home, Bob wouldn't
back me up, I remember Kris, his sister-in-law... now it seems obvious that we
must have been let go because Bob was with us and they didn't know what Bob
told us or anything... because there's no reason they should have let some
people who were out there on a Wednesday night with all this illegal equipment,
taking movies... just let us go and not taken our car and searched it... and so
I was in an argument with Kris, cause she thought that Bob being with us had
nothing to do with it... we were just lucky and they let us go. And I said, you
mean you think we were out there with all this stuff and we were just let go...
so, that's all I remember on the way home, cause Bob wouldn't take my side in
the argument. So, anyway, then I remember silence. Everybody was beat.
Q: Next
day... Indian Springs.
APRIL 6th,
1989
L: Indian
Springs.
Q: We went
down to EG&G and picked up Dennis.
L: Right
and then we drove to Indian Springs in my car.
Q: When you
drove into Indian Springs, did you comment that, I thought this base was closed
up... it's all boarded up, right?
L: I really
had never been up to Indian Springs before that. It's not boarded up... it's
there, but just deserted.
G: It's
just a little, rural base and the Thunderbirds land out there once in awhile,
don't they? It's just a little base designed to watch the perimeter of the bombing
range...
L: But it's
a big area...
G: But its'
nothing.
L: It's not
like multitudes of buildings or anything.
G: Right...
you go by it on the highway... it's not even that far to drive out and look at
it if you'd like to see it.
Q: But the
gate actually has a guard there?
L: Yeah.
And it says, "Auxiliary Air Force Base", or something.
G: And
isn't their water tank painted with red and white checkers?
Q: When you
went onto the base, did the guards stop you and ask for someone's ID or did you
just go right through the gate?
L: No, he
stopped us and Dennis said something and the guy checked a list and we went in.
So that was all the priliminary stuff... Dennis knew right where to go. He told
me to go up to this building... we walked inside and it was a small office
with... I don't know how many guys were there... I know eventually the guards
came down... but I think it was me and Dennis riding up in the car... the guy
that was there and someone else.
Q: People
you'd never seen before?
L: Right.
People I'd never seen before.
Q: Ever saw
them again?
L: No...
definitely never saw them again. I might have seen them before... I don't think
so.
Q: Came
back from Indian Springs -- did you say anything to Gene when you came back?
L: I know I
told him about what had happened.
G: Yeah,
the next day... not that night. You went out there... I didn't know anything
about that until the next day.
Q: What did
Bob say?
G: How
happy they were... that when he was driving out with Dennis... that he asked
him what we were going out there for and Dennis turned to him and said, you
know, Bob, you weren't supposed to bring all your friends out there to watch
the discs fly. And that was kind of it. He said it was a solemn drive.
L: It was
just quiet.
G: And he
said that they put guns to his head and debriefed him... the one guy had a blue
windbreaker on that said "FBI" on the back... right?
L: No, I
don't remember that.
G: I'm
pretty sure that's what you said, because that was the first... because you
said you didn't even know if he was "FBI", but that he had a blue
windbreaker on that said that. They put guns to his head, hollered at him,
screamed at him, and that's the night when they showed you the transcript of
Tracy and her boyfriend talking on the phone...
L: Right.
Q: Now when
you say, that's the night... you were up there during the night also.
L:
Whatever... it was late... it was a late... we left late and... I got back and
it was dark, so...
G: When you
left EG&G it was already like four or something and so you thought you were
flying out... and you and Dennis had to go on a sixty or seventy-five mile
drive... and it was winter, so it was dark the whole time, right?
Q: When you
saw the transcripts, that was a complete surprise to you? Or was it?
L: Yeah.
Q: Bob say
anything about the transcripts that he saw.
L: I must
have, if I told you about everything else.
G: Yeah,
right... he... well, you already knew about Tracy, right? You did before you
went...
L: No, that
was the first I heard...
G: Oh,
that's it... see, I don't want to (UNCLEAR) here, as I remember, now just
correct me if I'm wrong, I could be wrong, but I thought the reason they
decided to show them to you... and tell you that, was because Tracy called her
mom in Minnesota and told her mom she had an affair...
L: No,
that's when I came back and told Tracy they told me... and so purposely made
the call...
G: Oh,
okay... all right...
L: I was
trying to show them an end to... to show them that everyone knew what was going
on and it's over... I was trying to display an end... I even think her mom knew
about it... I'm not sure about that... but she purposely made a phone call to
her mom in Minnesota, telling her I told Bob about how everything happened, he
knows about everything, and so on and so forth... I don't remember how that
ended or...
G: And you
had her do that to what... show them there wasn't any emotional instability, or
what?
L: Beats
the hell out of me... I remember doing that... but I can't...
G: I
remember talking to him about this subject... cause he was (UNCLEAR) mad right
now... so I wasn't going... well, what did he say? And what did she say? I
mean, he wasn't in the mood for that.
L: See now
the story doesn't fit together right... something... I'm getting something
wrong... I remember, I made Tracy make that phone call to tell her Mom cause I
knew they were listening and, for some reason, I was... okay, well go ahead...
G: I don't
know... that was your and Tracy's personal life, the way I remembered... and it
could be wrong... you were the one that was there... again, I wasn't jumping in
to their personal business, cause this was a touchy situation at this point and
time... I didn't know... all I knew was Tracy, maybe at your request, called
her Mom and told her Mom that she had had an affair and that she told you... I
thought after that is when you went to Indian Springs... because now the guys
who were listening on your phone knew that you knew... because they had had
transcripts of her and her boyfriend for a long time and they weren't going to
break the news to Bob... I thought, once they heard her confess to her Mom that
you knew, know they knew you knew and stuck it in your eye and said, ha, ha
we've known and this is why we're yanking your clearance...
L: Why
wouldn't I remember this? This is a significant point.
G: Well,
what else makes sense though...
L: Well,
it's easy to find out, because...
Q: Let me
ask you, one of the salient points here is at Indian Springs was it definitive
that you were not going to get your clearance?
L: No, I
still wasn't sure...
Q: Good.
L: No, I
actually thought that I was still coming back, because they really never did do
anything... and, in fact, later on down the road, they asked me to come back...
I refused then, but... no one said, that's it... we want nothing to do with you
anymore... or anything along those lines. At one point, they said... emotional
instability and something about six months... you remember anything about
that... reapply in six months?
G: Yeah,
but they said they were going to yank your clearance, because you were a sure
candidate for emotional instability... you can reapply in six to nine months...
Now, I was under the impression, all this shit went down the same night as
Indian Springs... but I could be wrong.
L: No,
that's why I'm questioning... was that on Indian Springs night?
G: I
thought on Indian Springs night... cause you never went back again... they
called you back, but you thought it was because they wanted to put you in jail
or kill you... not because of work and that's why you refused to go back...
L: Right...
G: So if
you refused to go back... that means you never talked to these people ever
again other than Dennis on the phone or... that means it had to have happened
that night...
L: See,
they had to have told me first because, here's the debriefing on the 6th... on
the...
APRIL 10th,
1989
L: is
"life equals zero".
G: That's
when you knew Tracy had an affair...
L: Right...
so that is the way.
G: So they
were the ones that told you about Tracy's affair?
(START OF
TAPE SEVEN -- SIDE A)
(PHONE
RINGS)
Q: Bob,
help me with this... why is "life equals zero"...
L: I think
that's because when Tracy told me about everything about the affair...
Q: But you
saw the transcripts on the 6th... so you knew about it?
L: Right.
G: See...
Bob's a very live and let live guy... so Bob... now keep in mind, he's been
involved in the most important scientific program in the world, he's been
busy... he's been neglecting Tracy... he doesn't even tell her what he's
doing... and stuff like this... so Bob was willing to try and work it out. See
a counselor... forgive and forget. I think by the time it was "life equals
zero" , you just thought she had had a sexual fling... she told you she
actually had some feelings for Chris and that's when you said... that's what
hurt you. You didn't care that she had sex on the side...
L: Right...
G: You
bottomed out when you found out...
(PHONE
RINGS)
G: See I
don't like talking about this in front of Bob...
L: I don't
like hearing about it either.
(MACHINE
TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
Q: Okay,
"Life equals zero" April 10th... where do we go from there? This is
great, by the way, we're...
L: You
know, I even had a feeling that what I read was not true...
Q: On the
6th...
L: But the
hell with that... it doesn't matter... 'cause after the 10th nothing really
mattered.
Q: Did you
show her this when you came home? Did you show her the transcript?
L: I...
it's a blur... I really don't remember.
G: You
didn't get the transcript, did you?
L: No...
they didn't give me it. They never gave me any transcripts.
APRIL 12,
1989
L: Oh,
counselor... Dr. John... two days after.
Q: Who made
the call to Dr. John?
L: Tracy.
And then a trip to Los Alamos. See I'm in a bad mood already...
G: I didn't
want to...
Q: Bob,
this is important...
L: Yeah, I
know...
G: It's
like... here's the worst day of your life now... what happened...
L: Exactly
what happened next? Okay, here's his last name... LaClose?
G: Did you
tell him what happened with Dr. John?
L: Yes...
that he fired us.
Q: Can you
walk through how you phrased that to him?
L: Ahh...
Q: I mean,
how did it come up in the conversation?
L: Well,
cause he's trying to lay out... well, what's all the stress you guys keep
talking about? And I said, well, we have a lot of external stress and other
things influencing our life... he said, well, I can't iron things out... now
this is over several visits... he said, I really can't iron things out... why
don't we lay everything out on the table... and then Tracy and I now are
playing off of each other and we're laughing... saying... we keep beating
around the bush and we finally say... okay, this is it. And we lay everything
out... and I remember him sitting there with a pencil in his mouth and he keeps
taking it out and tapping it and then he goes over a recap of what we've just
told him and it sounds...
Q: Step
through the recap...
L: He
said... and it sounds just as ridiculous to us... so, you were working on alien
flying saucers for the government...
G: It
sounds funny now, too...
L: And I
can't remember how it was stated... and now that you're not working there...
they might be after you to kill you or your wife because you went and showed
your friends and your phone is tapped... everything you do is being
monitored... so on and so forth... and at the end... we said, yeah, that's
about it... and he just told us... look, I don't think I'm going to be able to
see you guys anymore... so... that's it and we left and...
G: They got
fired...
L: Right.
And then we had a great laugh coming back. That was... if anything that actually
did help, because we talked about that for days. Okay, that was here, so we
went the first time to the counselor... everything happened on the 10th... the
12th we went to the counselor... then we went again on the 18th and the 25th is
when we got fired.
Q: What's
the next date, Bob?
L: Well...
Tracy and I are still living together... and still working together... so...
she goes to Los Alamos and I'm here... huh? Well... Dr. John at 6 p.m.... maybe
that was the last day.
JUNE 1,
1989
L: So...
that, I guess, is the last day. But this is a surprising entry on June 1st...
it says... told Trac secret... what secret could that possibly be? Obviously,
she knew about all the flying saucer stuff. What was left that I could
probably... is it something that's going to depress me?
G: Nothing
I'm going to tell you. I don't know what that would be... but didn't you go on
TV in silhouette in May... didn't they start chasing you...
L: Oh, oh,
oh... maybe that's it. Yeah, cause we were caught...
G: April
5th... debriefed April 6th and I think you were on TV in May in silhouette that
was when you were trying to get them to leave you alone so you came forward.
Q: What
happened in that period, as best you recall, when Bob was... felt like he was
in danger? Did you feel like you were in danger, also?
G: Yeah...
I was a little paranoid because once he told me about the transcript of Tracy
on the phone, I knew for sure his phone was tapped and, by that time, we had
relaxed somewhat and talked about stuff on the phone... where if someone really
was listening, they knew I knew... and they knew Jim knew... and they even
would know I had called other people and told them... but I always felt they
were after him... I mean, I was paranoid... although some of it was being
paranoid for him more so than me... although I always thought... actually I
remember me and you and Tracy talking about staying quiet about it... certainly
more for him... I'm just saying that I can remember the three of us talking
about... that even Tracy and I felt that like we were carrying a weight...
because now we knew... he had taken us out... shown us the disc... we believed
him... we knew there had been life here from another source and the rest of the
entire world, including people older than us... younger than us... everybody
didn't know... and it was almost like a burden... I don't know if he can relate
to that or not... but it was... I don't know how to describe it... but it was
like carrying a heavy weight because then I was really... and even Tracy...
started to read everything we could... we had viewed all those tapes from Lear
and I was reading stuff... the library had a good selection of stuff here...
books written in the decade prior to that... tried to see if anybody knew
anything that paralleled what Bob had seen... so we really became students of
Ufology, as they call it... to see if anybody knew anything... and paranoid...
I remember one time... then the strange things started happening... I remember
he went to work out at the gym with Shelley and Mario and came out and his car
had been broken into to and the one time the doors... he had his Uzi and his
wallet in there and the doors were standing open and he came back to the car
and no one had stolen the Uzi or the wallet, which means whoever broke in and
opened the doors left them open to say... ha, ha we were here... then with
Mario a similar thing happened, didn't it? Didn't you go work out with Mario...
L: Right...
you kind of have the story wierd... that happened with Mario, twice, and with
Shelley I went to work out with her and her car was in the driveway... when we
came back to the house, her car was open... all the seats were back...
everything was gone through, but nothing was taken.
G: And then
another time... now we were paranoid, so he had his Uzi and he loaned me a .44
Magnum 'cause I didn't even own a handgun... I'm not a hunter or killer or
anything like that... I own a gun now... so I borrowed his .44 Magnum and so he
was being followed by unknown cars. It wasn't general paranoia because he
doesn't do drugs or anything against the law generally speaking, you know... so
I remember one day I was in my office, I've got the .44 Magnum in there and he
comes walking in...
L: Oh,
yeah...
G: And ah... he goes... give me the gun and I picked it up and I gave it to him and he doesn't say anything, just walks back out and then he goes chasing somebody, somebody had been following him down Charleston towards my office and he stopped at my office and got a gun and then wanted to go chase the car that had been following him, but I guess they lost you or something. Now he didn't know if this was the government or who it was, but somebody was following him...
Q: This was roughly what time period? Roughly.
G: Must have been in April, huh?
Q: And this is before you went on TV?
L: This is after April 7th...
G: It was before you went on TV though?
L: Yeah.
Q: And before the time that someone took a shot at you?
L: Right. Right.
JUNE 20, 1989
L: And just to update us, right here... it says "Dr. John drops us" on the 20th of June... so, I guess there were a lot more visits than I had imagined to him... but that's when that event actually does happen.
G: Also, even though it's not any place on the calendar, before Tracy moved out, he got his paycheck... now remember he was on call and so he might work one week... you know, five working days... over the course of a month or a month and a half... depending what time frame he was in... he got his paycheck... and he was going to skim the paycheck and not tell Tracy, because he had some electronic equipment he wanted to buy... so he got his paycheck and he showed me... and it was like nine hundred and fifty or nine hundred and seventy bucks... because I presumed a senior staff physicist would make more than that... wouldn't you? You know, you've got to go to school a long time... do a lot of things... and this guy isn't even making a grand a week as a senior staff physicist and I remember being curious about that and so that is when he received his paycheck and it was in one of those envelopes like... remember now... this wasn't critical because nobody knew he was going to get kicked out of the program... he thought there'd be many more paychecks... so it's not like I said, please, let me see the envelope and memorize it... but if I remember right, wasn't it like one of those brown Department of Treasury type envelopes?
L: It was a big check... I remember that... I don't remember what the...
G: (UNCLEAR)... the golf tournament...
L: Yeah...
G: But he did get a paycheck during that time... I mean, I didn't really look at it... all I remember is musing about the amount, cause I thought he'd be making more money.
Q: What did you think when he was shot at?
G: I thought it was big trouble... naturally... he had left my office and, in the mean time, I had left my office... I got home and there was this message on my answering machine in this real neurotic... nervous... scared voice...
Q: He was on his way over to John Lear's?
G: I don't know... why would you be going to John Lear's?
L: To do the interview with George? To do the satellite link-up with George.
G: Yeah, but I met you up... we went over to Lear's together... because, well, Tracy was at Lear's. Me and Tracy sat outside the van...
L: Oh, really?
G: We just used Lear's parking lot... was Lear even there?
L: This is such a blur to me...
G: Lear's got like a commercial parking lot in front of his house... I recall Marilee (sp?) being there... I don't recall John being there. Because here's the thing, Tracy, as you saw, is a very attractive young woman and she was trying to get into some modeling... she's too short... too much of a Munchkin to be a classic model... but certainly a great looking face... and Marilee Lear... she's a casting agent for bit parts is what she does now... for Lear Casting for movies that are shot here in Nevada... then, or she probably still does, she helped people get into modeling... she was like an agent... wasn't she?
L: Right...
G: So she... Tracy was using Marilee to try and get some photographic modeling jobs... for face shots and stuff like that... and I don't even recall John being there... but I do remember Jan Jones was there... who's now the mayor of Las Vegas... Jan Jones was there because...
L: She was going to buy their horse...
G: She was into horses and Marilee was showing Jan Jones a horse and Frank was the camera man in that van... I don't even recall John being there. And Frank and you were in the van and Tracy and I stood outside of the van while you did the silhouette thing...
L: That's right...
G: So somehow... however that went down... you and Tracy and I ended up back here together and went to Lear's parking lot together. Because it had to be a remote place, you know.
Q: Take me back a day or two before that... to the shooting incident.
G: I mean, I don't recall much about it, other than he was getting on the highway...
Q: Was it the same day as...
JUNE 21, 1989
L: I believe that was on June 21st.
G: It wasn't the same day... was it? Did you get shot and interviewed the same day?
Q: You went to the hotel after you were shot.
L: Yeah, I think... didn't I? Didn't that happen the same day?
G: I don't remember.
L: It was only four years ago...
G: Five years ago now...
Q: There was a message on your machine...
G: With him saying that they had shot his tire out and then you did disappear for a while... did you go to a hotel then, is that what happened?
L: Yeah.
G: Well, then I don't think you went on TV the same day your tire was shot out... cause somehow you and Tracy and I got together and went to Lear's parking lot.
L: Where was I going then?
G: When... what do you mean when?
L: When I got shot...
G: You were probably coming from my office and heading back on...
L: I know... but that is not the normal trip back... there was something specific that was happening just that day.
G: Right... cause you got on going north.
L: Right.
G: But that wouldn't have been to Lear's house... from my office to Lear's house you would have gone east.
L: That's right.
G: And you had to meet up with me and Tracy somewhere. So I don't know where you were going. You're right... you wouldn't normally get on 15 north... because you'd be begging for a traffic jam...
L: Unless I was going to meet you guys back here?
G: That might have been it.
L: 'Cause that's the way I would've gone.
G: Because the tire was shattered... there were no slugs or anything... I mean, later, right about that time was when we learned about (UNCLEAR) safety slugs... remember?
L: Right.
G: But again, I remember as a third party, but things were still a little wierd with him and Tracy. Cause even now I know she had an affair and they're going to a counselor and so I wasn't trying to dig into their personal lives... I was just trying to be a friend on the light side of things... and I was also trying to learn and have Bob tell me more UFO stuff...
Q: But he was shot at...
G: Right.
Q: Did you tell him to go to the police?
G: No, I didn't.
L: I don't think anyone did... I think the only person that did was...
G: Because if there wasn't a slug in the tire or anything, you could never convince the cops... that's not a normal thing... you could never convince the cops you didn't have a blow out... then what are you going to tell them? Well, would anyone have an occasion to shoot at you? Yeah. Who? Well, you see I worked on flying saucers and secret agents are chasing me... so it was literally that more than...
Q: So, shortly after that you went on TV.
L: Yeah, whatever date that was.
G: Now, backing up a bit... did you tell him about the time you and Dennis went to the police station?
Q: Nope, haven't heard about that.
L: No.
Q: Time frame for that incident is...?
L: Oh, boy...
G: Well, you said the police... I presume you're wondering could there be a record of any of this stuff. And he did go to the police station with Dennis Marrianni (sp?) one time.
L: That's when I was still going there... so we're talking a time frame... this is back, right after the Russians left.
G: That's not on there... cause when I did the whole thing on the calendars... once I wrote out every UFO related event or peculiar looking notes that would mean nothing to anyone but Bob... and I don't think you ever did mark that down.
L: Oh... what's here... called about guns? Called about guns. It is on here.
G: Holy cow.
L: January 23rd.
G: All right.
L: And go to work is the next day.
Q: And what happened on the 23rd of January?
L: Well, supposedly, what I was told was after the incident with the Russians, when we made some sort of discovery and kicked them out of the program, they weren't very happy about it... now, this is all just what I was being told...
Q: By Dennis?
L: Right. And I was told shortly after that, probably on that day, that one of the twenty-two that worked on the project up there was now missing. And what they were doing was issuing sidearms to all the people that were working up there... I was to get a gun. And it was... I'm trying to remember how they said it... it was just something I could carry from the airport and home and it could never go on the plane, it always had to stay at the EG&G building and come home with me. The following day was on the 24th is when I went to work and I think that's when they gave me... I don't know what they gave me... they gave me a little gun and I said, well, I have a gun... ahh... no, they gave me a gun and they said if I lost it...
G: Five hundred dollars deposit...
L: Right...
G: And you said, this gun doesn't cost five hundred dollars.
L: Right.
G: Why would I pay five hundred dollars if I lose it? This lady was arguing with you.
L: Right. And I said, I have a gun can I just carry that? And forget about this thing... so, that was agreed upon and they said as long as the thing's registered... well, I never register anything... so I had to go down and get the gun registered and with a permit to carry.
G: Yeah, cause your guns were from New Mexico... when he worked at Los Alamos and he never registered them in the state of Nevada.
L: Right... so I went with Dennis to the police station and the sub-station down on Eastern...
G: Well... what date was that just for the records?
L: Because... coincidentally we have one of the cops tracing down the paper work now...
G: January 28th? Is that when it was...
L: It's the 24th, 25th...
G: It was the day before your birthday.
L: Right.
G: The 25th... so the guy we know who is the... he's now an investigator for the District Attorney's Office... I don't know why we never saw it on the calendar, but anyway, we couldn't remember what date that was... so I gave him the serial number off Bob's .44 Magnum and he traced back the date to see when it was registered because we wanted to see if there was any evidence that Dennis Marrianni had to flip any ID at the police station. Cause it's pretty important trying to find out what you can about that guy. So, anyway, he found out that it was the South Sub-station over on St. Louis Avenue and he went over there to dig around, but a Lieutenant caught him over there and asked him what he was doing and stuff and he can't... he's three years in... so he doesn't want to get caught looking at the UFO guy's records. And, but anyway, so he's trying to dig up what he can on Dennis Marrianni. Also, when you went over there, remember Dennis went in to speak with the Desk Sergeant, or whatever, for a few minutes and Bob's sitting out in the hall and Bob tells me that the Sergeant comes out... some big, fat Sergeant and says, "So this is the kid the Russians are after."
L: Right. So he had told him...
G: Like somebody as important as me... he's looking at Bob, not knowing that this kid is working on craft from another star system... like he's big Mr. Policeman and why would the Russians want this kid and made a copy on the copy machine... isn't that so?
L: Right... that's exactly right.
Q: So you had the gun...
G: Anyway, in the state of Nevada, your car's an extension of your house, so you don't need a permit to carry a gun in your car. So he didn't need to get a permit to carry a gun.
L: Right. Just as long as it stayed in the car.
Q: What did Bob say about Dennis? Or did he ever talk about Dennis?
G: Well, later on, I saw Dennis.
L: Oh, in the hotel.
G: Yeah, right. But he said that he was a very...
Q: Tell me about that incident.
G: These are all such long stories...
Q: No... this is great.
G: Well, I guess this must have come after you went on in silhouette, didn't it?
L: This was even after...
G: Cause he already called and said...
L: I don't know if I'm right... I think it was after George's big expose... UFO...
G: Well, that was in November of '89...
L: Okay, then it wasn't. It was definitely after I was on.
G: Yeah, he was on in silhouette and Dennis was trying to get hold of him and Joe was in town for the weekend from Los Alamos and Dennis was trying to set up this meeting with Bob and Joe and I are here... so we think Dennis is going to be coming over here... so we're setting up all this stuff to bug the place. Remember... so Joe and I can sit outside...
L: Right outside in your cars...
G: And try and hear what is going on... so Dennis calls and we're here and Bob's talking and Bob can hear all kinds of reverberation and everything and says, look, Dennis, this phone sounds funny... what's going on here? Dennis wants to meet on a personal level... he just wants to talk to him... not in any official capacity. Dennis says, how about the Sahara Hotel... Bob says no... cause he was going to say no to whatever place Dennis said... and however they did it, they settled on the Union Plaza...
L: I said how about something on my side of town.
G: They settled on the Union Plaza downtown and we took that old Toyota I had... me and Joe and Bob... and we had this plan... and Bob went in before us... then Joe and I come walking in about a minute later. And Joe and I sit down and order something to drink and start playing the slot machines... which we never do. But we're going through slot machines, looking conspicuous, we don't know where Bob is... and he comes walking back to the casino area and goes... I don't see Dennis anywhere... and I go... well, why don't you page him on the phone. He goes over and pages Dennis on the phone next to the bar. Dennis never answered... you can hear the operator page Dennis Marrianni... no answer... Bob comes back. So then Bob leaves again, and this place is packed, so we don't see Bob. Joe and I are sitting together... well, Bob comes back next time with this strange look on his face and says... I just saw Dennis and he walked right past me and didn't acknowledge that it was me. I know he saw me and he wouldn't say anything... so he said, hey, Dennis, or something like that... didn't you? And Dennis walks past like he didn't know him. And Bob also said that he thought he saw another security guy...
L: Before I saw Dennis...
G: Oh, okay... he saw another guy in there before... so then Bob comes back over and doesn't know what's going on. So Joe stays there to guard that exit and Bob takes me to the casino... cause now Dennis has gone and sat at a blackjack table. So we go stealthily in behind the silver slot machine and he shows me Dennis... There's Dennis, just like he'd always described him... medium build... military trim haircut... neatly trimmed blond mustache... blond hair in shape. But something's wierd because then Dennis, he's smoking a cigar, also, Dennis had two gorgeous babes on either side of him playing blackjack... wasn't this like on a weekend night? A Friday or Saturday?
L: Yeah.
G: And so the place is packed... everybody's drinking... Dennis, playing blackjack, looking at his cards, he's not even looking at the gorgeous babes flagging him... he's not even looking at the dealer, I mean this guy's exhibiting unusual behavior for a guy playing blackjack... like he's paranoid about something. So I stay there and Bob... isn't this when you walked up to him at the blackjack table?
L: Right.
G: And says, Dennis, what the fuck is this? What's going on? You wanted to meet out here... now, let's talk. Dennis again doesn't acknowledge his existence and he comes walking back over and now Bob walks around the blackjack table, down this other bar, just on the other side, and I'm watching Dennis from behind. Now Dennis is facing like I am... Bob walking there... and I'm back over there behind Dennis... and now Dennis, after not looking up, not looking at the dealer, not looking at the beautiful women flagging him, now, the only thing Dennis has looked at is he follows Bob as Bob walks down... and I see that... which shows me that Dennis knows who Bob is... and then, Bob walks all the way back around and comes behind the slot machines. We're hiding and we're formulating a plan and we look back out and now Dennis is gone.
L: It was truly like a "Twlight Zone" episode...
G: He dematerialized. And we looked towards all the exits and the johns and we hurry and run, trying to go toward any exits because the plan was... let's at least get this guy's license plate. You know, what I mean, let's follow him to the parking lot and find out the plate on the car he's driving. We couldn't find him anywhere in the casino... he wasn't by any exits... finally we just walked back to where Joe was and told him what happened and we just left. And I guess you never heard from him again?
L: No, that was it. It was almost like something big was going to happen and it all diffused in front of our eyes.
G: He saw the guy from S4... there is the possibility that Dennis was trying to meet him on a personal level... to go... hey, man, this is what's going to happen... but see Dennis would have to have known that his phone was tapped. I just don't know how that story exactly went... could Dennis have not known the other S4 guy was there? And the other S4 guy was watching Dennis trying to get together with Bob? I don't think anybody's got the solution to that.
Q: It would make sense to me that Dennis arranged to meet so that Dennis might point Bob out to someone else.
G: Oh, I see. Oohh, that's spooky, I never thought of that angle.
L: Well, whatever the initial intention was... that's how everything happened.
Q: What other dates do we have that we haven't hit yet?
L: We kind of left off at... "Told Tracy the secret"... who knows what that was.
Q: We're in July, now?
L: No, June... June... seems like the shooting incident took place on the 21st.
Q: 21st of June was the shooting incident?
L: That's what it seems like. Right now.
G: But that would have been after you were on in silhouette.
L: The only reason I say that is because it says 280 Z dies. I dont know...
G: Yeah, but I don't know if... cause remember you and Tracy were without vehicles and all mine were broken, too, and I borrowed Reg and Sherry, my friends, van and we were using it for photo deliveries and everything. And Tracy was still here cause she took it on deliveries. Of course that doesn't confirm anything about chronological order... it's just that George says that you were on in silhouette in May... in fact I've got the tapes of that newscast, but it doesn't say the date on it.
L: Okay... it's certainly possible.
JULY 1, 1989
L: "Desert Blast" is on July 1st...
G: But it's pretty important whether or not you got shot at before or after you went on in silhouette.
L: Yeah, I'm positive I got shot at before. I know I got shot at before.
G: Because this was like a warning not to do it.
L: Right, I'm positive it was before... I just don't know the dates.
G: Oh, I thought... I don't know...
Q: Now, you were encouraging Bob to do this... or was John Lear...
G: To do what?
Q: To go on TV. Who was telling Bob to...
L: He did... I mean, you did, didn't you?
G: Well, I mean at this point I wasn't really encouraging him to do anything, because I thought they might kill him. I do remember... after... you're right... you got shot at before you went on...
L: I know it...
G: You did... because that was a determining factor. You know what I mean... that's when you said, hey, fuck it! Cause I remember when George called and asked if you'd go on and you said yeah and I said... you're shitting? I mean, this guy was going to go on TV and I thought, what a ballsy move.
Q: Now help me here with something? When George called... who did John Lear tell George Knapp...
L: John Lear I think was the first contact to George.
G: Yeah.
Q: So John told George... call Bob Lazar.
L: I don't know how he got in touch with me? I know it started out...
G: See now that Lear knew... Lear was starting to blab... the tape of when we were out there with Lear was the joy of Lear's life, at this point in time. So, yeah, Lear was trying to (UNCLEAR), cause Lear wanted everybody to go... ah ah... John Lear... I said it... I showed you... I changed the world. So he was the conduit to George Knapp. I don't know how it happened, but George Knapp called and out of the blue Bob said yes that he would go on television and I couldn't believe it. Which was really exciting because now we knew they're been life here from somewhere else and the hardware and everything... and this was a thrill because now Bob was going to go on the news and tell everybody. So it was thrilling...
Q: And he interrupted the evening news with this.
G: Well, it was a live... George hosted the "Live at Five"...
L: It was like a satellite...
G: I just recently got the whole tape dubbed from George on VHS if you'd like to see it.
Q: Course I would.
G: Of Bob in the van... not his story on TV... I actually got him in the van before the...
Q: I think I have a copy of that... I think I do.
G: I don't think you have a copy of this... but you've got a copy of that (UNCLEAR)... or you might have a copy of the broadcast. I mean, I got George's tape that wasn't ever aired... the tape taken inside the van...
Q: Oh, I'd love to see that.
L: We started shooting practice...
G: Did we?
L: Shortly thereafter, yeah.
Q: You went to a range to shoot?
L: Yeah... everything happens at the drylake bed.
G: Because I could shoot the UZI really well and I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with the .44 Magnum, which was the gun I had.
Q: Now, after you went public, Gene what did you feel like? After Bob went public.
G: I was excited... I thought it was the coolest thing that ever happened. I thought that...
L: I want to see if I can find the calendar after this...
G: I wondered where it would go from there... now see he did it, and although all the UFO fans think Bob did them a big favor to prove the government cover-up... he really did do it for selfish reasons... because he doesn't care... sincerely does not care about UFO nuts... people... he did nothing for them... even though it kind of looked like that, he did it for him to kind of force their hand and, also, around the time, for safe keeping, George Knapp and Brian Franklin (?), the cameraman, came here and did a video tape... which we now call the Bob Chronicles, which was just for safe keeping... not for anything, just in case they were going to get Bob because he went on in silhouette... we now had a tape with Bob saying everything on camera... and this is when George Knapp's boss gave him permission to go ahead and do the UFO special, which George ended up winning the UPI Individual Achievement Award for for 1990... but George did that UFO special and Bob still, a month before the broadcast, did not give George permission to use anything of him in there... because Bob did not do it to become a UFO star... he did it to protect himself. Do you remember what made you decide to go on that George UFO clip?... Anyway, I remember...
L: Do you remember the fight in the editing room with George's boss?
G: I remember George coming here and Bob going... how's the UFO Special going? And George is drinking beer, cause George can drink beers like shots and not get drunk, you know what I mean, there are people just like that... George goes... without you I've got no UFO Special. And finally Bob broke down and said, okay... I don't know what caused him to do that... cause this is one where he goes... this is Bob Lazar... so then George got to edit in all this Bob Lazar... so how he did it was it was Sweeps Week and so the first four nights, and this was excellent, you saw "UFO's The Best Evidence", didn't you?...
Q: Umm hmm...
G: Okay... the nightly news clips were even better... they edited that into a two hour "UFO'S The Best Evidence" to be shown as a package... as a presentation, but that was just a compilation of nightly segments over the course of like eight or nine nights on the news... ten or fifteen minutes every night... and so the first four nights, he did one great job showing people basic UFOlogy... well, through history, and you go back, in the Bible and this and this and this and this... all the way up and in the '40's and '50's and then quotes from generals and ex-presidents and here's what the Mormon Church thinks and here's what the Catholic Church thinks...
NOVEMBER 11, 1989
L: By the way, if I can insert something there... November 11th is when that special started... my segment aired on Friday the 10th.
G: Right. Okay, so that's exactly right... and so then, he's setting them up for the big boom and the big ratings... on Thursday night... they're going into tomorrow night and we're going to reveal this man and they show the clip of him in silhouette from May and now they've got everybody in Las Vegas... they got the biggest share ever of anything ever in Las Vegas on that Friday night five o'clock... or six o'clock news show... whatever it was... and that was the night that revealed this Bob Lazar...
Q: What happened after that?
G: Oh, Jesus, the switchboards went absolutely crazy... the public response was unbelievable... George probably received hundreds of phone calls a day for weeks and weeks if not months. Because he continued the next week... they introduced Bob on Friday and then on Monday... they've got more of Bob... well, here's what happened... he was flown out there... and the blue bus... and, you know, the story... and then Tuesday they had Lane Khak(?)... did you tell him anything about Lane...
L: No...
G: That was in "UFO's The Best Evidence"... you saw him, the hypnosis regression guy?
Q: Umm hmm.
G: Well, that was Lane and they interviewed me, but anyway... it went on the next week... they used Bob Friday and then Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday they told his whole story and backed it up with other people surrounding him and stuff and that program has been bootlegged around the world.
L: It was a great program.
Q: When was the polygraph?
L: Polygraph... I saw both of them right here.
OCTOBER 10th, 1989
L: The first polygraph was October 10th... that was with the guy that wanted to be on "Donahue"... and the second one was on October 17th. Look at this... it says "evidence" on the... a good reason to...
Q: What does that say?
L: It says "they took this as evidence". This was during the...
Q: Brothel?
L: Yeah. The brothel.
Q: Wait a minute... the dates for the brothel incident were?
L: I guess it starts here... Friday the 13th.
Q: Was it?
L: Yeah. That's an amazing coincidence. It says "raid" and it says "calendar gone" the next day, cause I had to fill this stuff in afterwards. And that was the best fireworks show ever, for some reason.
G: By the way, they're trying to make those hypnosis regressions with Lane... and Lane's still here in town if you'd like to talk to him...
Q: Tell me about that?
L: Well, you can tell him... I was under hypnosis...
G: But it wasn't like these UFO things... Bob had total consciousness and memory recall of everything...
L: I was trying to remember exactly... the exact wording...
G: He was describing gravity waves...
L: And redraw some of the schematics and other things that I had...
G: It wasn't anything like they portrayed it... and Bob went back and they made him remember... he had total memory of everything... he wanted to get him to relax... cause, you can imagine... he was taken to that briefing room for random amounts of time to look through the most exciting information anybody with any brains could ever see and absorbed a lot of it as it ended up... he was able to remember a lot of it... but that's what he went for... it wasn't to remember... it's not like he had no recall and went there... and oh, that's right, I worked on flying saucers...
(LAUGHTER)
G: John Lear was on a TV program one time and Lane said that it sounded like they used a thing called the Orion Response on Bob... because Bob said, they were slamming fingers in his chest... and shouting in his ear and threatening him and pointing guns at his head and everything and so Lear goes on TV... it was "On the Record" with George Knapp and goes... yeah, I know this scientist and it's a strange thing, when he goes to work there, they're able to turn him on and make him remember everything and then when he goes home... they turn him off and he goes home and he can't remember anything that happened... and they used this secret government thing called the Orion Response... the Orion Response was actually advertised in the Yellow Pages under hypnotherapist... but this is a John Lear story. And there are a hundred thousand people who would believe that you could take a scientist to work, like a robot, and turn him on and off... and this was the kind of stuff... so, Lear takes a little thing that Lane said, hey, it sounds like they might have used the Orion Response on him... which everybody in hypnotherapy knows about... Lear turns it into a super secret government thing that only he knows about.
Q: Did anything come of the Khak business? The hypnosis?
L: Yeah, I did recall a lot more specifically... as far as... I drew exact layouts of how things were... and I got the days separated... at least back then... wherever those dates are now. And I tried to remember exact wording in the briefings...
G: And that 115 was activated...
L: Yeah... exactly how... I wanted all the physics down without any errors and it was a lot for me to remember, but specifically how the decay went with 115... just some of the specifics...
G: Oh and the stuff on externally corrected evolution and that stuff...
L: Yeah.
Q: What's externally corrected evolution?
G: Don't look at me like that?
L: No, I'm just saying... go ahead... you started it...
G: Well, (UNCLEAR)... that he read in the reports... that man was a product of externally corrected evolution and that man is a species that's been genetically altered sixty-five times.
L: I mentioned that to you before.
Q: Umm hmm... okay.
L: No, I laughed and gave you a look because you say externally corrected evolution and it flows off your tongue like a common thing.
G: That's true. Which started me on years of reading, by the way. I mean I'm still on that.
Q: But that was from the files?
L: Right. So, basically, the only thing we got from Lane was just remembering things more specifically... mainly the physics and you need everything verbatim that way... cause, as you well know, one or two characters out of place or something and everything goes down the tubes. So that did help to some degree... we took notes and...
G: When I say that he was in control under hypnosis... was Lane would get on some subject, because Tracy and I were there one or two times and then just me and then me and George and Brian... he actually wanted to televise it originally... not televise it... video tape it... and, so, I passed Lane a note, because when Bob would be talking about things that happened, like he'd be talking about a guy out there named Rene and I would pass Lane a note... saying "last name"... so he would ask Bob, did you see a last name on a name tag... but, anyway, he'd get on some subject and Bob would say, I'm not suppose to talk about that. In other words, even under hypnosis, he wouldn't let it... it was kind of wierd.
L: So that's really all that happened with Lane and then really kind of everything wound down from then. Until the brothel thing happened.
G: Yeah, UFO's backed down (?) after they saw that Lane story... because no one set Lane up... Lane didn't know what was coming... he starts to regress Bob and Bob's talking about discs... and Lane thinks he's saying desks. And poor Lane... we later became friends with Lane... and finally Lane realized this guy's talking about flying discs... which was a big revelation to him... because Lane was an innocent bystander... he was not briefed... he didn't know anything... just that Bob was going to try and remember some things... so Lane had trouble knowing what direction to go and we'd pass him notes.
Q: Let's talk for a minute... pure speculation... if they still might be flying them...
L: Not there.
G: D.J., the guy we told you about who was the D.A.'s investigator who looked up the thing about the gun... there's a computer guy back in Virginia and he had... I don't know how he does it... but he gets on these computers and found a list of people working at national labs in technical positions and this and that... and the guy who indoctrinated him was Barry Castillo...
Q: Spell Castillo...
L: Castillio or something like that...
G: Well, anyway, we have him... so this guy back east sends us a FAX saying he's found a Bartollo Castillio... because Barry and Castillio don't really go together... so he finds a Bartollo, which sounds better together, working at San Dia (?) Labs in New Mexico... this is present day, now... and so with the guy's work telephone number... with the guy's home address and telephone number... now the only way to find out if that's the Barry is to have Bob identify him... but anyway, the curious thing is... D.J., the guy at the District Attorney's office, runs Bartollo Castillio in New Mexico and the guy does not have a driver's license in New Mexico... nor does he have any license plates there... and this is the guy that we got the address on that says he works at San Dia Labs and he does that without a car or without a driver's license in the state of New Mexico...
Q: So, he's from out of state?
G: Well, I guess... that's as far as it's got... there's no sense in going any further unless we can have Bob... where does he live... Santa Fe?
L: Alberquerque...
G: Alberquerque... that's right... unless Bob can I.D. this guy. Oh, my point here is that, we speculated that it's not probable that Barry was in training Bob and he was in that deep and they go... okay, your position here's over and now we work you to go work on this stuff down in San Dia... and considering that the whole Stealth Wing moved into New Mexico and considering that Bob told everybody that the disc program was in central Nevada... and yet this Bartollo Castillio...
L: After that... after all that stuff happened, there was a big movement of stuff to New Mexico, including the Stealth planes... it seemed as though there was just a blitz...
G: It's a possibility that the discs are in New Mexico... you said speculate... and that's purely speculative...
L: But from what we've heard, anyway, and DiaMatto, who supposedly took a flight around there... and Congressman Bilbrae (?) helped try and get my records from the FBI, you know, wrote letters back and forth, because he didn't accept the answers that they were giving either... so supposedly they did take a flight around there and then there's apparently nothing left of the area... if they did take them to the right place.
G: Now DiaMatto wasn't necessarily bright enough... I wouldn't even believe that he was at (UNCLEAR) drybed... I don't know Bilbrae, I presume he's an intelligent man, because he's a Congressman, but DiaMatto was a babe in the woods... this guy, he might be a (UNCLEAR) investigator, but he was not very bright and I would not even believe that he knew if that was the place... so I wouldn't take his word, but the two of them allegedly took a helicopter flight around there... they couldn't find any evidence of a base there...
Q: When did they do that... when did they take the flight...
L: Just recently...
G: 1993...
L: Just recently... and, though the roads and what not still remained, but they all just deadend and disappear now...
Q: And there reason for going there in the newspapers or in the press was listed as...
G: Well, it wasn't a high profile thing... Billbrae was on the Defense Committee, or whatever it is, in Congress... DiaMatto was actually sent out because Senator Byrd, John Glenn and so other guys were getting so much pressure from their constituents because of Bob Lazar... this story made it around the world and the Lazar tapes got out and got bootlegged all over the place and, you know, people started pressuring their congressmen and stuff, and so these senators don't want to go on the record yea or nay about anything and it also rubs their ego, because they feel there being one hundred guys in the senate... especially the guy, you know, Sam Nunn... and guys like that... need to know what's going on and if that, kid, in their words, is telling the truth and this is going on... and if not through the normal chain of commands... if this stuff is going on... where are they getting the money? They want to find the money trail... and, in addition to the disc program, all the projects of ROARDA (?), our new spy plane, they can't find the money trail for it... the Air Force says it doesn't exist... yet people have heard it...
Q: It's funded by the CIA... it's always been that way...
G: People have seen it... actually the word under the table, which came from John Andrews at the Testor Corporation, his suggestion... and his suggestions are pretty good, by the way, is the way it works is... they have a deal with Saudi Arabia and places like that... that they jack up the price of oil... and, by the way, that's why we defend Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and places like that... and they actually get a kick-back from those oil countries so they don't have to get that from the budget and, also...
L: I've never heard this...
G: Oh, you've heard this... then the research and development... if Lockheed, for instance, is doing research and development, and they don't have to do it for the United States, they can do research and development under the guise of doing it for Saudi Arabia, as long as they notify the United States government... we are doing this research for them... so, therefore, they can get kick-back money by allowing oil prices to be raised and doing R&D under the guise of doing it for a foreign government by notifying the United States government and therefore the United States government cannot audit their budget and can honestly say we don't know anything about it.
Q: I don't know if that's true, or not, but it's common knowledge that the U2 and the SR71 were CIA funded and those funds were not subject to congressional... not audit... I'm looking for another word... congress wasn't involved... and I would imagine that there's the same mechanism today. So that's great... they went out to Papoose Lake and flew around in the helicopter and didn't see anything.
G: But that kind of activity has been going on forever...
L: Well, first of all, if what was going on there, when I was there, was still going on... a bi-budget (?) investigator and a congressman are not going to fly over Papoose Lake bed... that's not going to happen... that's absolutely impossible... so, I think things were moved way before '93 and, in fact, Jim, who worked at the Tonapa, before he left, already saw... he saw himself designation areas as S4 between the S4 that I worked at but at Tonapa... and construction and what not going on... so, wherever it had moved, I'm convinced it moved... and I think they were more than happy to bring people in to show them what was going on... it was just to take the heat off...
G: In fact, when Peter...
L: See, there's nothing...
G: ... Billbrae or DiaMatto... one of them, when they went up there...
L: But there's a road... you can drive three 18 wheelers on side by side... but there's nothing there...
G: It was like a Lieutenant Colonel, I guess he met DiaMatto, or was it Billbrae, anyway, he tells him that he wants to go to Papoose Lake and they said... so you've been talking to Bob Lazar, huh? You must remember this?
L: Yes.
G: I don't know which one it was... was it DiaMatto or Billbrae...
L: Well, when you said that I just tuned out... because I remember the thing... the CIA guy that Andrews talked to or something in Washington... remember... and they started talking about Papoose... do you remember the rest of the story?
G: No, I don't know that one...
L: 'Cause I don't either... it was along the same lines...
G: But, anyway, when DiaMatto or Billbrae, one of them, went out there... a Lieutenant... it might have been Billbrae, because a Congressman... a Lieutenant Colonel met him and when he said he wanted to go to S4, the guy actually mentioned Bob Lazar's name. He didn't say S4... he said, I want to go to Papoose Lake and he said, so you've been talking to Bob Lazar, huh? Oh, and that's right, the first time DiaMatto came out, there was a white-out... it snowed all over the place up in central Nevada... so there was no air traffic up or back...
L: That was his surprise visit.
G: Yeah.
L: He came out to surprise everyone... this was the first visit by any civilian, essentially, out there... so he came up and he said, okay, I want to go up to S4 and they said... we can't... it's white-out conditions... we can't take you up there... so he had to wind up going back to Washington.
G: And the next time, they said, we'll take you up there, but you aren't going to find anything. That's what they said and we thought, wow, that's really confident to say... we can take you up there, but you aren't going to find anything. But, anyway, that was the DiaMatto sneak visit and there was a white-out. So, by the way, just so you know a little chronology here, the sneak visit... wasn't that sneak of a visit, because we met with him before the Gulf War started and then the Gulf War started and went and ran its course and DiaMatto came out what... eighteen months or two years later for the surprise visit... so...
Q: You both met with DiaMatto?
L: Yeah.
G: And George Knapp. But (UNCLEAR -- several voices speaking at once)... accommodations over at Nellis Air Force Base... George checked him out in Washington, D.C.... George went to Washington, D.C. to get his UPI award and he checked DiaMatto out whie he was there... and DiaMatto's the real thing... what I'm saying is... DiaMatto came out and did not give his surprise visit till two years later... so they knew he was coming eighteen months or two years in advance... cause the whole Gulf War had happened and wound down and was over before he ever came back... which was a valid excuse... he had other things to do...
Q: That's a great story. Roads that just end... nothing there.
L: Anybody hungry?
Q: Let's go get something to eat.
L: You feel like getting something to eat?
G: Sure.
(START OF TAPE 7 -- SIDE B -- NOTE: DISTORTED SOUND)
G: ... now to me... it sounded like a guy trying to influence Jon Farhat into hiring him to make sure he didn't have any trouble.
Q: Really? Well, I think, that the easiest way for... if there are problems with the story... really the easiest way for them not to make a big deal out of it is to let it go... the stupidest thing someone could do would be to try and stop it.
G: However, movies, as you well know, I'm sure, mean a lot because the legacy of the story of JFK to our children will be the movie, "JFK"...
Q: I hope not.
G: It will be. That tends to be the general influence...
L: Well, that's kind of sad... that is... but... ah...
Q: Should we go in one car?
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON -- DIFFERENT SETTING)
G: When we were outside of Area 51 one night... and, here's the thing, Bob compartmentalizes information, so he was telling me stuff... Joe stuff... Jim stuff... maybe Lear stuff... but I never questioned... we never had a big old meeting... and I didn't know what they knew... and they didn't know what I knew... and I felt just fortunate to know what I knew... now a couple years ago, he told me that the reason I ended up knowing more than everyone else... because other than Lear, which he didn't give that much information to, his other friends, who knew him longer... his older friends, Joe and Jim, didn't ask him. But, anyway... which I find strange, if you had a friend that could answer those kind of questions, would you do anything but question him? But anyway... we were driving out there and Lear goes... you know how many aliens are here? And I said, you mean, how many do I know are here or how many do I know you think are here... and he takes that as an insult... and then he proceeds to tell us that we can't remember if it's one billion or two billion...
L: No, how many aliens are living in the mountains that lie along side of the road? And we think he's joking. But he's serious. And I said, no, John, how many. I'd say it was a billion, but...
G: It was either one or two billion... who cares... let's say a billion...
L: There's a billion in there. In these mountains alone.
G: And we said, now do they just live on Highway 15 or over on Highway 95...
L: And he got so pissed off... he really believed...
G: This guy expected us to believe there were a billion aliens living in the mountains that line the highway on the way up to Area 51...
L: It was great... it was absolutely great.
(MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON)
G: Anyway, he's over in Laos, when we're not supposed to be in Laos... he flies cargo in there and they go to sleep in these tents and he's going to bed for the night and Lear goes to bed and he starts to fall asleep and he hears a KABLAAAMMM like a bomb goes off and he gets up and he thinks this is the end... he thinks they're being bombed and this is it... they're all going to die... but he looks out and across the way there are a bunch of other pilots out there and there's a light out there and they're playing games... they're throwing knives against this wooden building for money... they're gambling and throwing knives at a target... and he lays back down and all of a sudden KABLAAAMMM, it happens again, and Lear is scared to death... he's shaking, but he doesn't know what to do and he doesn't want to act like a big sissy... cause these guys are out there throwing knives. So this goes on all night and he doesn't get any sleep and he gets up in the morning... trying to act macho and he goes to take a shower and stuff and the subject of the loud explosions come up and this is when he finds out that those were outgoing shells... and those were the guns going off... and that's why the other guys weren't worried and throwing knives and he thought they were being bombed on... So they gave him the award of the Laos chicken, wasn't it... or something like that?
L: Yeah.
G: He got a ribbon with it...
L: That's a John Lear story.
G: ... it was equivalent to the woman from Venus in his eyes... he's just the funnel... he takes everything and doesn't qualify or anything and he just spits it back out... and when someone proves it to be absolutely false... Lear says, I'm sorry. And he thinks that's okay. Now most people in the rest of the world don't... but Lear's misinformation is not malicious... he's a numbskull... he's a knucklehead... he could play Curly on the Three Stooges... but he doesn't look like that... even his house... this guy lucks out... they've got a house... you know, I did an appraisal on his house... that's how we got all the original UFO... five hundred thousand dollars... he's got... it's on 2.2 acres that (UNCLEAR) on Hollywood Boulevard that have off on Sunrise Mountain and there's a whole view of the valley... the nighttime view is breathtaking... things are a lot cheaper here than down where you're from... I think it's only worth about five hundred and fifty thousand now... he's got 2.2 acres... the main house is a two story stucco/tile, pretty nicely decorated inside... it's forty-four hundred square feet... then in a U-shape around the pool, there's a seventeen hundred square foot two bedroom/two bathroom with a fireplace guesthouse...
Q: Jesus... I should live here...
G: You should... a seven hundred and twenty square foot one bedroom kitchenette/one bath studio, which is next to the four car garage around the pool and behind it is a tennis court and a corral with a tack room in it... and that's all...
Q: Five hundred and fifty thousand dollars?
G: Well... anyway, so, this is all on... there's eight/tenths of an acre behind that... all that good stuff I just described is on 1.4 acres and it's 2.2 acres total... he's got his own wall, everything... so I don't know how they found out about this, but this house belonged to a highroller gambler... there were first, second and third mortgages on it and he went under and they foreclosed on it...
Q: What does that tell you about highrollers?
G: Yeah... so Lear bid three hundred and thirty thousand bucks on this house... I don't know where he was going to get that...
L: From his mom...
G: Oh, okay... so he bids it and they turn it down... so all these mortgagers foreclose on it and it comes back for an auction at the bank... Lear is the only one that shows up at the auction... he bids a hundred and seventy-five thousand and they take it. He had already offered three thirty and they turned it down... he goes to the auction, only one there and bids one seventy-five... they take it and the land was worth more than one seventy-five... so this knucklehead gets this 2.2 acre estate for a hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars. I mean it's the best real estate deal I've ever seen...
(LAUGHTER)
(END OF TAPE SEVEN)
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